Loose key

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mendipman
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Tell us something.: I play flute and stringed instruments and enjoy playing in sessions and for step dancers and teach music part-time. My flutes are a new Gilles Lehart blackwood keyless in D, a c.1820 Clementi 'Nicholson improved' English boxwood single key in F and a simple-system 8-key English blackwood flute made by Richard Weekes of Plymouth, Devon c.1840 both in beautiful, pristine condition. I also have a wooden c.1880 English keyed flageolet. My home is in North Somerset a short distance from where my family come from at Blackford in the Mendip Hills and my repertoire are the tunes that are local to my area. That is the rural vernacular English music from when ordinary working people simply played and danced to their own rhythm with little concern for that which lay beyond a day's walk.
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Loose key

Post by mendipman »

I have noticed a leak that is caused by a loose key. The key has play from side to side. It is post mounted and the mounts, spring and key all look to be in good order. I've recently replaced the pads. But with that movement are worn spacers on the pivot the usual cause? Is this a DIY fix or should I take my flute to a repairer? If I do how much is this likely to cost?
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Re: Loose key

Post by busterbill »

Wait for more advice before you take mine, but I had a post mounted key fixed by a local instrument repair person here in Chicago. He was quite experienced in clarinets and oboes, but had never seen a simple system flute before. He was quite able to fix a wobbly long c natural on my post mounted keys. Some may say never do that, only take it to a person experienced with simple systems flutes, but such repair persons may be few and far between. I was lucky in that I had an expert in his field with 30 years experience who could apply his experience to my instrument. My repair was very inexpensive, about $30. He adjusted two keys and put on some cork so I ended up spending $75. Others may have an recommendation for a person near you.
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Re: Loose key

Post by s1m0n »

I don't believe you're all that far from jemtheflute. If he doesn't spot this post and chime in, I'd suggest you give him a hail.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

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Terry McGee
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Re: Loose key

Post by Terry McGee »

This sounds like it needs "swedging", a term which seems peculiar to the woodwind industry, probably a malapropism for "swaging" (pronounced "sway-jing"). The key is removed, and the axle inserted into the hinge tube. Special "swedging pliers" are then used to compress the tubing onto the axle, which has the effect of slightly lengthening the tubing. Then the ends are neatly dressed to the length that fits perfectly between the posts. This achieves two things - the length between the posts being perfect removes side play, and the tubing now a tighter fit on the axle removes any tendency for the key to rotate slightly laterally (as seen from above). This second tendency occurs because of wear or slop in the axle-to-tube fit.

Then the service technician should check for leakage through the pad, as the pad may have been installed with the keycup in a slightly different position or angle.

Woodwind repairers should be able to handle anything a wooden flute throws at them, given they routinely do clarinets and metal flutes, which pretty much covers our flute technology. They do tend to look at pewter plug keys on antique flutes with firstly disbelief, then horror.

Ask the technician to give the flute a good look over and contact you if they think anything else is amiss.

Oooh, one other thing. Does the axle unscrew, like a clarinet, or is it just an unslotted pin? Some of these push out either way, some only push out one way. If so, it would be good to warn the technician that this might be the case. You can usually just see the difference in diameters with the one-way pins, or sometimes one end is flat, the other slightly rounded.
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Re: Loose key

Post by jemtheflute »

What Terry said.
If mendipman is in the Mendips, he's rather awkwardly far from me.....
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

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mendipman
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Tell us something.: I play flute and stringed instruments and enjoy playing in sessions and for step dancers and teach music part-time. My flutes are a new Gilles Lehart blackwood keyless in D, a c.1820 Clementi 'Nicholson improved' English boxwood single key in F and a simple-system 8-key English blackwood flute made by Richard Weekes of Plymouth, Devon c.1840 both in beautiful, pristine condition. I also have a wooden c.1880 English keyed flageolet. My home is in North Somerset a short distance from where my family come from at Blackford in the Mendip Hills and my repertoire are the tunes that are local to my area. That is the rural vernacular English music from when ordinary working people simply played and danced to their own rhythm with little concern for that which lay beyond a day's walk.
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Loose key

Post by mendipman »

Thank you all for the advice and technical information. It does sounds like more than a DIY project for a novice and that I'll have to make a trip to my nearest woodwind repairer...that's probably in Bristol. I would happily let Jem take a look at it but North Wales is (for us) quite a hike from the Mendips.

Terry, the axles on my flute push out. I've recently done a complete repad so I know none of them are stuck. I've taken the loose key off and found that the tube that runs through the key body is loose. That appears to be what the problem is.
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Re: Loose key

Post by s1m0n »

What's the expression: "North Americans think 100 years is 'a long time', while Europeans think 100 miles is 'a long way'".
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

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Terry McGee
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Re: Loose key

Post by Terry McGee »

mendipman wrote:Terry, the axles on my flute push out. I've recently done a complete repad so I know none of them are stuck. I've taken the loose key off and found that the tube that runs through the key body is loose. That appears to be what the problem is.
Is the hinge tube a loose fit on the axle, or is the hinge tube loose from the key shaft?

If the former, swedging. If the latter, the hinge tube needs to be soldered back to the keyshaft.
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jemtheflute
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Re: Loose key

Post by jemtheflute »

Sounds like a solder job.
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

My YouTube channel
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Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
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mendipman
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Tell us something.: I play flute and stringed instruments and enjoy playing in sessions and for step dancers and teach music part-time. My flutes are a new Gilles Lehart blackwood keyless in D, a c.1820 Clementi 'Nicholson improved' English boxwood single key in F and a simple-system 8-key English blackwood flute made by Richard Weekes of Plymouth, Devon c.1840 both in beautiful, pristine condition. I also have a wooden c.1880 English keyed flageolet. My home is in North Somerset a short distance from where my family come from at Blackford in the Mendip Hills and my repertoire are the tunes that are local to my area. That is the rural vernacular English music from when ordinary working people simply played and danced to their own rhythm with little concern for that which lay beyond a day's walk.
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Loose key

Post by mendipman »

The tube is loose in relation to the key shaft.

I'm taking it in to have a flute repairer fix it on Saturday.
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Re: Loose key

Post by awildman »

Terry McGee wrote:This sounds like it needs "swedging", a term which seems peculiar to the woodwind industry, probably a malapropism for "swaging" (pronounced "sway-jing").
My dad sometimes used swaging tools for use with HVAC tubing, and he even pronounced the word correctly. It's been over two decades, but I seem to recall some inner dies and a set or two of special pliers. Sounds like the same principle.
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Re: Loose key

Post by Terry McGee »

Exactly so, awildman.

We also use "swages" and "swaging tools" in the carillon industry, for attaching the pull and down-wires that connect the bell clappers via cranks to the playing clavier. The wire is passed through the copper or stainless steel swage, bent through a hole on the item to be connected, bent back in the direction from which it had come, then the swage is slipped over the loose end and "swaged" with the swaging tool. Essentially a squashing motion.

Interestingly (for some!), one 19th century flute maker, Cornelius Ward, used carillon-style pull-wires and cranks to operate some keys on his Patent Flute. You can see a schematic drawing of the instrument at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Ward_FE_5.htm although it doesn't actually show the pull wires. They run from the Left Thumb to the foot keys. I don't think the design proved very popular - you rarely see them in museums, and I've never found one that worked!
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Re: Loose key

Post by awildman »

Terry McGee wrote: The wire is passed through the copper or stainless steel swage, bent through a hole on the item to be connected, bent back in the direction from which it had come, then the swage is slipped over the loose end and "swaged" with the swaging tool. Essentially a squashing motion.
For electrical wiring a similar technique would be called crimping here. The difference is that the crimping pliars leave a significant indent to assure solid connection. Swaging seems more designed to leave the surface intact while maintaining 'round'.
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Terry McGee
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Re: Loose key

Post by Terry McGee »

Indeed. We now use crimping in the electronics field (my original career path, and one I still make regular use of). I don't remember doing it in my day (seventies). We soldered everything.

Interesting to compare two activities both based on squashing. In crimping, we need the indent you mentioned to guarantee electrical connection, and to prevent the wire pulling out of the connector. Uniform squashing isn't enough.

In swaging, we want the interior of outer piece (the hinge tube) to take on the diameter of the inner piece (the axle), but we are definitely not looking for a permanent connection - we need the tube to be able to rotate smoothly around the axle. This doesn't always happen automatically - the tube may need light reaming after swaging.
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