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 Post subject: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:16 pm 
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My flute has a very loose silver ring that no amount of humidifying or oiling seems to tighten up.

It is located at the bottom of the headjoint, which is not a compression socket for a tenon; there is no outward pressure by the tenon or the tuning slide directly on the ring. The tuning slide floats at this point, and does so for at least another three-quarter inch into the socket, at which point it is supported in some sort of lining - thread or cork I imagine.

What is the next step? Some sort of glue? Open to suggestions. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:25 pm 
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gorilla glue


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:04 pm 
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From C&F thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46465&view=previous


Terry McGee wrote:
Good advice there from Jim. If wherever you are is sufficiently drier than where Hammy is (and, Ireland being Ireland, there's always a good chance!) for the rings to fall off, it means the wood around the slides is also under considerable tension. I'm not in favour of indescriminate use of dampits, but you can't get into trouble if you use a dampit in conjunction with a small hygrometer. Make sure it is working properly though - some of them I've seen can be 30% out. Compare it with a known reliable unit, or even put it outside and listen for the weather report on the local news! You can usually get inside them to recalibrate them (the end of the spring is attached to a moveable plate, usually secured with a drop of fingernail polish), or just mark where it ought to be.

I'd also check with Hammy on what he'd recommend on tightening the rings. Unless he has a better plan, here's my usual advice:

Fixing loose rings

The rings on wooden flutes are more than decorative. Those on the sockets are vital reinforcement for the thin wood. Wood can handle a lot of compressive load, but not ruptive. Rings can become loose when the wood shrinks after a spell of dry weather. There is an easy fix for loose rings. It's called "the old handkerchief trick" ...

Remove the ring, noting which way it goes on easiest, and set it aside. Take a small piece of thin cloth - a scrap of worn handkerchief is usually ideal. Don't overdo it by using too thick a cloth as this will have the effect of narrowing the socket mouth.

Holding the joint vertical, with the offending end uppermost, put the cloth over the end. (If this is a section with a tuning slide sticking out, you'll need to make a rough hole in the cloth to let the slide through, or just bunch it up enough)

Take up the ring, being careful to keep it the right way up and push it onto the end, pinning the cloth underneath it. It shouldn't go on very far. Now force it on most of the way by either of the following two methods (But remember - don't go all the way just yet!)

1. Tap it down equally all round with a soft faced mallet, or a piece of wood. If you use this method on the socket end of a headjoint, remove the cap from the other end of the headjoint first to prevent it being damaged. (It should just unscrew or twist off. If it won't, use a bit of dowel to push both cork stopper and cap off. Remember to set the stopper back in the right place later!)

2. Press or tap the ring against something unyielding like the desktop (if you don't mind denting the desktop!)

(Again, if this is a section with a slide sticking out, you have to work carefully around the slide.)

Whichever method, stop when there's about 0.5 mm or 1/32" all round left to go.

Now, with a sharp razor blade or scalpel, cut away the spare cloth from around the ring. Make sure the blade cuts into the 0.5mm or 1/32" gap, so it won't leave visible marks on the wood or leave scraps of cloth remaining. Once the scraps are neatly gone, continue to press or tap the ring completely home. Now use your razor blade again to remove the cloth covering the hole at the end of the joint.

All of this might sound a bit daunting, but it actually takes less time to do than to read about! The cloth, being resilient, will almost assuredly prevent the ring coming free again.

Terry

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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:22 pm 
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hpinson wrote:
My flute has a very loose silver ring that no amount of humidifying or oiling seems to tighten up.

It is located at the bottom of the headjoint, which is not a compression socket for a tenon; there is no outward pressure by the tenon or the tuning slide directly on the ring. The tuning slide floats at this point, and does so for at least another three-quarter inch into the socket, at which point it is supported in some sort of lining - thread or cork I imagine.

What is the next step? Some sort of glue? Open to suggestions. Thanks.

It can also mean that you are letting the flute dry out to much in low humidity, better get the flute some moisure STAT!

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Jon


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 am 
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jim stone wrote:
gorilla glue


For someone who is not a woodworker who is planning to use Gorilla Glue on their flute they should know what they are getting into. As this glue cures it can foam quite a bit, so careful clean up is required. Any glue squeeze-out needs to be removed (wiping the excess up, possibly using paper towel with a bit of mineral spirits on it), and you had better keep an eye on it as it continues to cure because the glue between the ring and the flute body can continue to foam. It's all manageable if you are experienced using the glue and don't use too much of it, but to the inexperienced user who has never worked with it they might find themselves regretting their choice! It is a strong glue, but I used it extensively for many years and found that it had a pretty substantial pain-in-the-neck factor in terms of clean up.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:05 am 
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Thanks all. I will try the handkerchief trick. It seems less destructive.

I'd be very hesitant to try the Gorilla Glue. I've worked with it, and besides foaming it is a very permanent solution. Removing it down the road would be quite difficult. The only removal methods I know for Gorilla Glue is physical scraping or acetone, neither of which I would want to do on this nice flute. Or maybe just a dab at 2 or 4 points?

The real solution may be to make a new tighter ring.

Has anyone tried using hide glue? That is a very reversible glue, but I have no idea if it would bond to the metal.

Jon C. - the flute is as hydrated as it is going to get. Played daily for at least an hour, oiled weekly, and sleeps in plastic box with a moist sponge. But yes I am in a very dry climate, especially in winter.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:29 am 
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Just to add the Gorilla Glue was recommended to me in this situation
by one of the world's most famous and respected flutesmyth's. I like Terry's
method too. Note that the OP specified that low humidity is not the problem.
If people have difficulties with GG in particular,
other gluey options are available. YMMV, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:32 am 
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You can wick in some super glue from the edge and then clean up any that is in unwanted places using super glue solvent. Both are available at hobby stores.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:35 am 
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hpinson wrote:
Thanks all. I will try the handkerchief trick. It seems less destructive.

Another option, and one that I have used in the past, would be to wind a bit of dental floss around the part that the ferrule slips over. Waxed would be best as it helps the floss stick together, and to the wood as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:41 am 
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Casey, would the CA glue solvent leave any stain on the blackwood if used at some point to undo?

Any sense of if hide glue would bond to metal?


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Since you say the the ring is "very loose", glues are not a good option IME, because generally they only really work well when you don't have gap between the parts you are trying to bond. If the ring is quite loose that's not going to be the case. Plus, you mention oiling the wood under the ring, soneven with a tight fit, you'd need to use solvent on the wood (and ring), and abrade both as well.

The handkerchief method or a new ring is the best way to go, IMO.

No experience with hide glue, can't help you there.

Re: Cyanoacrylate Solvents: They generally will have some amount of "bleaching" effect on the wood, making it appear laughter in color where the solvent was applied. This is particularly dark woods like African Blackwood, however the effect is typically reversed by oiling and, if necessary buffing. Depends largely on what solvent you use. I'd recommend Super Solvent by Golden West, used it quite a bit at the shop where I worked, and we used CA glues quite a bit.

That said, I doubt you'll get a good, long lasting result with CA in your situation, but you could try and the advantage is, with the solvent, you won't have a problem removing the glue from the parts if it doesn't work. If you are gonna give CA a shot, buy the thickest stuff you can find, and also consider using a CA accelerant to speed the curing time. Insta-set works well.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Hide glue is water-soluable, so that might not be an ideal solution for the inside of a flute.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:39 pm 
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Where he's talking about putting it wouldn't be subject to any significant moisture.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Hide glue doesn't bond to metal well (in addition to being water soluble). It does incredibly well at bonding two woods together, but without pores, the glue has no way to seep in for the bonding action.

Also, naturally oily woods like most exotic hardwoods, including ABW, can cause problems for any glue, including CA and epoxy.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Loose Ring
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:09 pm 
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I melt shellac on the inside of the ring, then heat up the ring with a soldering iron and push it on. I guess I am old school.
Gorilla glue gets applied with a toothpick tip amount, any foam is cleaned with alcohol.

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