Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

[Akiba]

Based on experience with high-pitched flutes, it's my theory that Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is actually a high-pitched flute, i.e. A=455. It wasn't until Molloy's early recordings did flute makers think of making an official Eflat flute. Is this true?

[an seanduine]

Try reading this interview: http://www.mattmolloy.com/interview-with-matt/

Bob

[bradhurley]

Try reading this interview: http://www.mattmolloy.com/interview-with-matt/

Bob

My friend Sean McCutcheon did that interview, which he gave me for my flute site and later Matt's website developer used it as well. It's kind of odd, though, because most of those band flutes were in Bb, weren't they? Obviously Bb and Eb flutes are compatible (I once watched Kevin Crawford transpose tunes on the fly on his Eb flute to play along with John Rynne on a Bb flute) so maybe there were Eb flutes made for bands too. But I wonder if, as Akiba suggests, people just found that older "D" flutes were close enough to Eb that they could be used in bands?

[Uni Flute]

There are quite a few flutes made at the back end of the 19th century that are sharp enough to play in Eb. I came across a flute that could just about play in Eb with the slide all the way in and the air stream blown more across the embouchure. This instrument could also play quite well in D with the slide pulled out nearly a full inch, which is something not all of these flutes can do. There doesn't seem to be much visible difference in size between flutes that play in D at modern pitch and those "Eb" at a sharper pitch (~ 450 Hz.) This would suggest that these flutes were not different instruments designed to play in another key.

On the other hand, I was able to play a flute a few weeks ago that was rather different from those sharper D flutes. It was a Hawkes & Son, with a single middle piece Pratten style body and large tone holes. It played in Eb with the tuning slide out around 6 mm. and played sharp of modern pitch Eb with the slide all the way in. As I play rather flat, I found this surprising. It was impossible to get this flute to play anywhere near D at 440 Hz. It was remarkably shorter than a standard D flute in overall length and scaling. It's my personal belief that this flute was made intentionally as an Eb. I imagine antique instruments made as Eb flutes are rather rare.

I am not sure which of the two types of flute Molloy's Eb is.

[an seanduine]

I referenced the interview because of several key-points. The man Matt bought the flute off 'played in a brass and reed band' and 'they played in Eb'.
The community bands came in I believe, in the 1880's. I cannot, however, find my reference. Modern flute band practice does include Eb instruments in the flute 'choir'. The scarcity of the Eb and Bb instruments is due to their cost. The community bands continued up to and past the formation of the Republic, so that can't give us a reliable clue as to pitch. . .
Perhaps someone could drop in to Westport for a pint and a word. Matt might be kind enough to give us a tip on the pitch of his Boosey.

Bob

edit: It also occurred to me that there is a recording of Rodger Sherlock playing on a trip back home in Clare on a lovely boxwood flute. . .either Eb or very high pitch.

re-edit: Oh, damn! I just recalled Sherlock's flute in Clare was not boxwood like his usual instrument in London, which in turn was why it caught my eye.

[bradhurley]

Perhaps someone could drop in to Westport for a pint and a word. Matt might be kind enough to give us a tip on the pitch of his Boosey.

I don't think it's the Boosey he was referring to as the Eb flute, though. I'm pretty sure that's a separate flute, which he used for that album with Tommy Peoples and on most of his first solo album (the exception was the Humours of Ballyloughlin, which he played on a D flute). When he was playing with the Bothy Band, Chieftains, etc., he was playing different flutes. I think the first Bothy Band album was a Rudall and Rose, after that he switched to a Pratten's Perfected as his D flute. Eventually mostly an Olwell, and I think now he may be playing a Morvan too. I got the sense that the Eb was a different instrument.

[oleorezinator]

The flute on the cover of "Old Hag You Have Killed Me"
is a rudall, then owned by Cirian Mac Mathuna.
Later on in 1987 Ronan Browne had loan of it.
He let me play it. It's a gorgeous flute.

[s1m0n]

I think you're quite likely correct. Prior to Irish revival figures in the 70s or later, many of whom were influenced by Malloy's early recordings, I don't think anyone was consciously making a=440 Eb flutes, but early in the century, many makers made high pitch "concert" flutes that effectively play well in a=440 Eb.

There was a definite trend towards playing in Eb in the 70s. In part, it had the effect of freezing out players who weren't in the know, and no doubt it was influenced by Malloy's early records, but it was fueled by the widespread availability of vintage high-pitch flutes.

[dunnp]

Yes makers were making Eb flutes for flute bands in high pitch and other pitches. Designed to play in consort with Bb band flutes, F flutes and Eb and f piccolos in flute corps.
I have an Eb six keyed flute with AL keys in front of me now that is one such flute. It is rather high pitched with the slide in and plays ok at modern pitch with the slide far out.
I'd imagine Molloy's early Eb was this type of flute. High pitched Eb.
High pitch is still used in some flute bands in Northern Ireland and Scotland.

I also have an anonymous D flute that looks similar to the above. With the slide in it plays nearly in Eb but with poor intonation. It plays at 440 with the slide out a mile but with poor intonation. It plays ok in the middle so it's target pitch. This flute is a high pitched D flute not an Eb.

So there is a difference here. Makers knew they were making two different sized flutes regardless of which target "pitch" they were after.

Hope this doesn't confuse the topic.

[dunnp]

Here is a 1931 Rudall and Carte Catalogue offering "Concert, Eb, and F Flutes"
on the same page are Concert and Eb piccolos. The flutes would have been 8 keyed versions.
Orchestra and band parts must exist for these flutes as in their Boehm equivalent known as a Db flute.
http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/RC2/RC1931-10.html

Further along in the same catalogue it lists flutes for flute bands including Bb, Eb, and F flutes
http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/RC2/RC1931-12.html
These were six keyed band flutes.

I usually think of Eb flutes as a relatively later thing but here is a Clementi Collard and Collard
Catalogue offering a boxwood 6 keyed "second flute."
This was in 1823.
http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/clementi/clem2.html

[dunnp]

Here's a Rampone catalogue using different nomenclature but also offering flute in Do, Reb, and Mib.
These are D, Eb , and F flutes in the nomenclature used by most of us despite meaning C, Db , and Eb.
http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/rampo ... one18.html

[Unseen122]

Could be a high-pitched flute, could be that Matt had the slide in all the way and never tuned to to something in tune (there were no electronic tunes in those days). It could also be the unfortunate habit that some sound engineers have, increasing the speed of recordings which also raises the pitch, this happens more than some of us realize. I should also note that in those days the artist didn't really have any say in things like that so it certainly wasn't Matt's idea! If that is indeed what happened, if you are listening to a CD or digital copy it is also possible that this speeding up was done when the masters were updated.

[bradhurley]

Could be a high-pitched flute, could be that Matt had the slide in all the way and never tuned to to something in tune (there were no electronic tunes in those days). It could also be the unfortunate habit that some sound engineers have, increasing the speed of recordings which also raises the pitch, this happens more than some of us realize. I should also note that in those days the artist didn't really have any say in things like that so it certainly wasn't Matt's idea! If that is indeed what happened, if you are listening to a CD or digital copy it is also possible that this speeding up was done when the masters were updated.

But if you read the interview with Matt Molloy linked above he clearly says the flute was in Eb.

There was a parallel discussion on The Session some years back: https://thesession.org/discussions/29593

[dunnp]

For what its worth the original questions were whether Matt's flute is an Eb or a high pitched D and whether makers were making flutes in Eb or are they just high pitched D's. I think the catalogues show that makers knew they were making Eb flutes whether at 440 or 452.

Matt knows his flute is an Eb. Now the question of Matt's Eb flute's pitch. Is that individual flute high or low pitched. I just played along to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7NxJDp4zQ
with an Eb 442 dry tuned melodeon without a bother. Notice Matt has the slide out a bit.

His famous 'Black Album' seems pitched a bit higher on certain tracks. And higher again on the Molloy, People's, Brady. So were they sped up or just played with the slide right in?

Another thread on the session a reliable source suggested Matt himself thought things were sped up slightly:
https://thesession.org/discussions/35576

[Unseen122]

Could be a high-pitched flute, could be that Matt had the slide in all the way and never tuned to to something in tune (there were no electronic tunes in those days). It could also be the unfortunate habit that some sound engineers have, increasing the speed of recordings which also raises the pitch, this happens more than some of us realize. I should also note that in those days the artist didn't really have any say in things like that so it certainly wasn't Matt's idea! If that is indeed what happened, if you are listening to a CD or digital copy it is also possible that this speeding up was done when the masters were updated.

But if you read the interview with Matt Molloy linked above he clearly says the flute was in Eb.

There was a parallel discussion on The Session some years back: https://thesession.org/discussions/29593

I never implied that it wasn't!!!!!!!!