Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by Akiba »

Unseen122 wrote:
bradhurley wrote:
Unseen122 wrote:Could be a high-pitched flute, could be that Matt had the slide in all the way and never tuned to to something in tune (there were no electronic tunes in those days). It could also be the unfortunate habit that some sound engineers have, increasing the speed of recordings which also raises the pitch, this happens more than some of us realize. I should also note that in those days the artist didn't really have any say in things like that so it certainly wasn't Matt's idea! If that is indeed what happened, if you are listening to a CD or digital copy it is also possible that this speeding up was done when the masters were updated.
But if you read the interview with Matt Molloy linked above he clearly says the flute was in Eb.

There was a parallel discussion on The Session some years back: https://thesession.org/discussions/29593
I never implied that it wasn't!!!!!!!!
Whoa...easy does it there.

Thanks, folks. This is very interesting. New information for me. Yes, it's an Eflat flute, that might have been high-pitched on top of it. OK.
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by s1m0n »

dunnp wrote:Yes makers were making Eb flutes for flute bands in high pitch and other pitches. Designed to play in consort with Bb band flutes, F flutes and Eb and f piccolos in flute corps.
I have an Eb six keyed flute with AL keys in front of me now that is one such flute. It is rather high pitched with the slide in and plays ok at modern pitch with the slide far out.
I'd imagine Molloy's early Eb was this type of flute. High pitched Eb.
Good point. I hadn't been considering band flutes. I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that band flutes tended, like yours, to max out at six keys. Certainly my Bb band piccolo/fife is the same. Does anyone know of examples of an 8 key Eb band flute? Do any of the cuts on Malloy's Eb recordings drop down to D or C#?
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by an seanduine »

Naturally we are back at Jason's original questions. So, from Matt's own words we know the Boosey flute is an Eb flute, made in 1861. Without the flute in hand, or stopping by Matt's for a pint and pestering him, we can resort to Terry McGee's research and try to draw some conclusions about the target pitch of the maker: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/eng_pitch.html

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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by s1m0n »

AFAIK, no vintage makers were stamping their flutes with the key they were aiming at, let alone the pitch. Hammy tells us that the 1850+ 8 key we think of as D flutes were thought by their designers as playing in C, like contemporary Boehm flutes. So how can you tell the difference between a deliberate a=440 Eb flute and a high-pitch D flute that's closest to a semi-tone high? The only way to tell is to guess where the slide should go, and sound it. If it sounds like Eb, it's an Eb flute. Or a high pitch flute. What's the dif?

I think one rule of thumb might be the number of keys. I suspect that band flutes and lower-end flutes might be most likely limited to 6 keys, while orchestral flutes had 8. A high-end 8 key flute might sound well in Eb, but it is most likely to be a high pitch orchestral flute, not a band flute. It's maker thought it was sounding in (Irish) D or (classical) C, but at a higher pitch than now. If it gets as high as a=466, it's dead on Eb. I don't know of any high pitch orchestras that got that high, but a tuning slide can cover a lot of fudging.

A six key Eb flute might either be a student model from a high pitch era, or a band flute from an a=440 era. If you know the age age of the flute, the eras and the regions, you can make a good guess which was which.
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by dunnp »

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _space.jpg

Link to an image of the flute in question.

It does have foot keys. It would be the makers equivalent of the Eb flute listed next to the concert flute in the Rudall Carte Catalogue.

Even today Boehm flutes and piccolos are made but very rarely in Eb. They just call them Db flutes and piccolos. They are still really for military band music. I'm no expert at this type of music but I think famously the piccolo part for Stars and Stripes Forever is scored for Db piccolo.
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by dunnp »

The thing is the high pitched D flutes I have don't play in Eb. They play between D and Eb in reference to A:440.
I had a Boosey Cylindrcal flute made in the 1920s simple system. Sounded great but too high for a D and too low for an Eb and with the short slide of cylindrcal flute. It was what it was a high pitched D flute.
The other two I currently have are anonymous English jobs. They will play in 440 with very long slide extensions. With a short extension they play around 450ish. Even fully closed they don't reach the extra 15 cents needed for a full semitone. Some maybe could roll the headjoint out, blow like hell, and close slide but the results will be poor.

Classical musicians refer to a normal flute as in C because when one fingers a c note the note sounded is C. What we call an Eb flute they would call Db because when one fingers a "c" on the instrument the note sounded is Db.
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by rama »

an seanduine wrote:.... So, from Matt's own words we know the Boosey flute is an Eb flute, made in 1861......
Bob
I don't think Matt stated in the article that the Boosey PP was Eb, wasn't he referring to the German flute when he was talking about Eb?
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by an seanduine »

I think a careful reading of the text will correct your misconception, Rama. He states explicitly that it was the Eb flute that caught People's attention, and further states that it was with this flute that he made the first album. In another interview, Matt describes the flute his father brought back with him from America as a sweet voiced, but quiet flute. In fact, Matt has stated the flute was a 'Wurlitzer', which would make it like a great many flutes out of New York from the end of the 19th Century, branded by the retailer but of unknown make. I have had several flutes of this type. They are sweet voiced, but in no way can stand up to the Boosey Pratten Perfected.

Bob
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by an seanduine »

The exact wording in the interview is: A friend of mine introduced me to a friend of his who had had an accident with his hand. He used to play flute in a brass and reed band; they played in Eb. I didn’t know anything about that, but he wanted to sell me the flute, which he did. There was great tone off it, great bang off it. So I was thrilled with this thing. But I had nowhere to go with it. All the sessions were in D. But Tommy heard me play this. He used to love to crank the strings up into Eb and play, so that’s how we got the whole thing started. And I made the first solo album with that flute.
He is not referring to the flute his father dug out of a trunk. The flute he has in another interview as being branded a 'Wurlitzer'.

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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by dunnp »

Two different flutes.

The Eb seems to be anonymous or the maker is never mentioned at least in the interviews. It has an embouchure band see the photo I linked. It has a single piece body like a Pratten. It's English made has 8 keys an is an Eb flute. It's also pictured on the cover of the 'black album" I think. It is not the German "Wurlitzer."

The D flute he used with the Chieftains for years is a marked Boosey Prattens's Perfected. No embouchure band. 8 keys in D.
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by jemtheflute »

Matt's Eb flute is a Boosey & Co. 8-keyer and is not specifically HP, though it will doubtless go quite sharp of A440 pushed right in. I don't know if it is actually stamped as a Pratten's Perfected, but if not it will be essentially the same design.

These Eb flutes, whilst not particularly common, are not all that rare - I have 3 Hawkes & Son 8-key Ebs ("Pratten style") and an Ebonite Boosey & Co. one in the house. All are perfectly usable at modern pitch within the normal range of their tuning slide. I also have a 6-key Hawkes Crown A-Z Eb here and that will barely play at 440 with the slide way out and is definitely a HP instrument. As Doug said, real HP D flutes, even at their shortest, are longer than real 440-usable Eb flutes (conical or cylinder bodied, compared within type) and real HP Ebs are shorter again.

It is quite clearly stated on Matt's black album and on the Heathery Breeze that he used an Eb flute.
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by rama »

Was not his D flute the 1861 Boosey PP that he refers to?
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Re: Matt Molloy's "Eflat" flute is a High-Pitched flute?

Post by smoro »

Matt´s D flute was a Pratten Perfected flute, made by Boosey in 1861, 8 Keys, BLOCK MOUNTED KEYS. It was his main flute from 1980 to 1997 (see any Chieftains youtube clip around those years), until he moved to a 6 Keyed Olwell.
The Eb flute that Matt used in his early recordings is another different flute, 8 keys, PIN MOUNTED KEYS. (See the famous clip with James Galway in youtube)

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