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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Thinking of buying a Boehm flute. I know most of us don't play these,
but some of us do. So I wanted to ask you which are better for Celtic music.
Does the open holed flute give the Irish musician more options she can
exploit. For instance, how about slides? Can one do them with plateau keys?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:45 pm 
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I thought I covered slides in my previous response to you, was that not helpful?:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105105&p=1190464#p1190464

Plateau keys are fine, unless you want to half-hole, or feel the air column under your fingers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:36 am 
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You can always get plugs for open-hole keys, so they play like plateau keys. You can't do the opposite.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:53 am 
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nohoval_turrets wrote:
You can always get plugs for open-hole keys, so they play like plateau keys. You can't do the opposite.

I expect many plateau models are offered for sale at lower prices than the French open-hole. For instance, the lower part of the product lines are often plateau key, with open-hole offered or exclusive to step-up, intermediate, or professional models. There are also sometimes deals on used and vintage flutes that might affect the OP's selection, especially towards better quality instruments. I don't personally know if there are different maintenance costs associated with plateau vs. open keys, due to the pads. Certainly there are different issues related to quality of mechanism & repair/adjustment costs when moving from student through to conservatory flutes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:45 am 
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Sorry Kevin. Bear of little brain, I am.

I take it the following is true. Flutes with plateau keys will enable one to play slides, if one learns
the right techniques.

I've been reading more about all this, and there seems to be a major dispute
among Boehm fluters whether, on other fronts, plateaus are better than open-hole keys.
Apparently the open-hole keys eneable flooters to do things (get effects) needed for
avant-garde contemporary music that plateaus will not. Other than that, the jury is
out on which are better. The plateaus appear to be making a come back, with
its champions saying these yield better intonation, the open-hole key crowd insisting
the opposite, and so it goes. The plateau champions suggest that open-hole keys are
popular because of fashion. Nobody seems to know exactly HOW open-hole keys
improve the flute's sound, on the contested supposition that they do.

It sounds like, to sum up, the keyed flutes with plateau's can do slides, and the
rest is controversial. Under that circumstance there seems to be no solid reason
not to go for plateaus. I take this to be what Kev has been saying all along.


I know Joannie plays a very expensive flute, but I don't know what sort of keys it
has. Thanks again to all.


Last edited by jim stone on Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:45 am 
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jim stone wrote:
So I wanted to ask you which are better for Celtic music.

Neither. Notwithstanding Joannie Madden et al., I'd say stick to your simple flute(s) for that.

nohoval_turrets wrote:
You can always get plugs for open-hole keys, so they play like plateau keys. You can't do the opposite.

Strange as it might sound, top makers will tell you the holes should be in very slightly different places, though I wonder how many actually follow this through for models offered in both configurations. I have one key (G) plugged on my perforated-plate flute to allow me to operate the G# key in my four-fingered way, but can't say I've noticed any ill effects on the A.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:20 am 
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Oleorezinator has kindly referred me to this:

https://books.google.com/books?id=HKuHK ... ll&f=false


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:25 am 
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jim stone wrote:
I know Joannie plays a very expensive flute, but I don't know what sort of keys it
has. Thanks again to all.

She was playing a Miyazawa, I don't know if she has changed.
http://www.miyazawa.com/flute-models/standard-specs/ wrote:
All models are built with elegant French style pointed tonearms. Open holes are a standard specification to allow for extended techniques such as multiphonics or pitch slurs. Plateau keys (closed holes) are available by special order at no additional charge.


Sharon Creasey sessions regularly on an aluminum Ubeul Boehm with plateau keys, although the pad seats on the body are similar to those on a wooden flute.
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:37 am 
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A good flute in good condition of either sort is, as always, more important than which option it is. You can slide with open holes a bit more naturally and they are useful for quarter tones. For ITM, I don't really see what difference they would make, but, then, I play ITM on a wooden flute and use the Boehm for the rest of it...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Open holed or plateau doesn't matter in my experience. I have both, but I play an antique German flute from the 1920's with plateau keys as my primary Boehm flute. I think if you want to play ITM, it's better to have a flute that's has an older, more blending, woody sound than a modern metal flute designed to cut through glass with that very metally tone. The tone can be altered significantly by the headjoint, but you probably don't want to buy a flute and then buy another headjoint.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:26 am 
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Might be worth it to do a bit of research on those who do play Boehm system instruments, the Grey Larson flute book discusses several, and see what they're using. The same Grey Larson book has a whole section on how various proponents of the Boehm system flute approach Irish traditional music and ornamentations.

There's also the DVD tutor on playing traditional music on the classical flute. It's written and performed by Brian McCoy, the flutist and piper for Baal Tine. He definitely gets a great traditional tone out of a silver flute.

Also, a wooden head joint can get you closer to a "woody" sound as can a wooden Boehm system flute.

I have issues with my fingers and can no longer handle a simple system flute, so for me the only option is a plateau system. I actually wanted a better instrument so I bought a french system flute and got a set of Powell plugs for it. They blend in with the key work and you wouldn't know by looking the the flute was converted.

JD


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Plugged open-hole (French-style) keys are not the same as plateau keys; plugging the open holes messes a bit with the intonation because it's not designed to have a plug extending level with the pad (one's fingers obviously don't go that far into the hole).
I'd worry much more about material and overall quality than open vs. closed keys. A sterling silver (or wood) head-joint, for instance, makes a positive tonal difference (the body can be plated, with less effect on tone).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:29 pm 
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tin tin wrote:
plugging the open holes messes a bit with the intonation because it's not designed to have a plug extending level with the pad (one's fingers obviously don't go that far into the hole).

Ah, so it's the lower notes (at/below plugging level) the plugging affects rather than the venting of the higher ones? In which case I've missed the point when I said above, 'I have one key (G) plugged on my perforated-plate flute to allow me to operate the G# key in my four-fingered way, but can't say I've noticed any ill effects on the A.'

Edit: just looked at the plug and it has thin sides where it plugs in as well as a top flange above the key, but no bottom, so isn't filling the depth of the hole.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:13 am 
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I would concentrate less on plateau vs French keys and more on the lightness of the action. A very good action is a wonderful thing and facilitates more musicality than the sort of key you have. I prefer French keys for no reason than I learned to play with French keys much the same way I prefer an inline g because that is what I'm used to.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Akiba wrote:
Open holed or plateau doesn't matter in my experience. I have both, but I play an antique German flute from the 1920's with plateau keys as my primary Boehm flute. I think if you want to play ITM, it's better to have a flute that's has an older, more blending, woody sound than a modern metal flute designed to cut through glass with that very metally tone. The tone can be altered significantly by the headjoint, but you probably don't want to buy a flute and then buy another headjoint.

It's all in the embrochure for sound.
The material doesn't matter much.
Except for key clicks Joanie Madden,
Noel Rice and when Jack Coen and
Mike Rafferty played the boehm you'd
never mistake their sound for a non-simple
system flute. However the reverse just isn't so.
A wooden simple system in most cases won't
sound like a metal boehm.

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Last edited by oleorezinator on Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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