Top-end Flutes?

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Adrian W. wrote:You could add Hamilton and Windward to that list, no?
You could add Copley (I would) and others, but I've tried not to so far because topics like this always end up as, well, just lists of what people play rather than what was asked. But, since I basically love my Copley special more than any other instrument and had such a hugely positive experience with Dave developing it for me, of course I think he belongs in such company. Which he probably also does objectively as a maker offering top quality at less than top prices!
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
hpinson
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:30 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by hpinson »

[quote]Which he probably also does objectively as a maker offering top quality at less than top prices![/quote]

Which, yes, is what I am asking about.

One of the problems I've had evaluating such flutes like the Copley and Windward, living in a somewhat remote location, is trying them in person is not an option, and I have to rely on video demos that either the maker puts forth, or individuals create. Often these videos are of relatively mediocre players with the instrument, and that is not so helpful.

The Copley is a good example, where it has a great reputation, but I can find no video or recording that really backs the claim up - and mainly it is because the recordings available are not of [what I consider] top notch players with the instrument.

The Windwards are a little better - most of their recording are mediocre, but a few exist of Sylvian Barou that really make the instrument shine, and I can tell they make a good flute. I'm actually tending towards the Windward. Really want it to be the last flute I buy.

This all has been helpful - in that it gets some names out there to consider beyond the star makers.
User avatar
maestrosid
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:27 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Rohnert Park, CA

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by maestrosid »

Always an interesting discussion. I am also a mandolin player, and see similar threads in that context. There are about three makers generally accepted as the "top" makers, whose instruments sell at a premium. Getting a new one from them generally involves a very long waiting list. There are, many very good makers at more reasonable prices. "Best" is a relative term that depends on your particular criteria and changes from person to person. You usually wind up with a discussion of what instruments people have, play, and are happy with.

That said, the OP asked about very good flutes sold less dearly. Let me just toss in my personal favorites of Glen Watson, Martin Doyle, and Solen Lesouef. I am fortunate enough have a keyless Olwell and one from each of these makers, and they are all great in their own way. They are all flutes well above my ability.

I think the least known of the group would be Solen Lesouef from Brittany, so let me share a recent example.

https://youtu.be/Pnc0GybRWkc

I think it is a Golden age for both flute and madolin players, as there are so many excellent makers out there.
hpinson
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:30 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by hpinson »

Excellent example - Aoife Granville really does justice to the Solen Lesouef flute.
User avatar
Unseen122
Posts: 3542
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 7:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Of course I'm not a bot; I've been here for years... Apparently that isn't enough to pass muster though!
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Unseen122 »

hpinson wrote:
Which he probably also does objectively as a maker offering top quality at less than top prices!
The Windwards are a little better - most of their recording are mediocre, but a few exist of Sylvian Barou that really make the instrument shine, and I can tell they make a good flute. I'm actually tending towards the Windward. Really want it to be the last flute I buy.
Hanz Araki has been playing a Windward for a number of years (at least since 2012) so you may want to look into his recordings.

All of this is subjective of course, plus it is hard to describe what makes a really super flute that super verses some that is just quite good. This is how I would describe the difference between my J. Gallagher and the Copley delrin D/C set I currently own and the wooden Eb I used to have. I can't quite explain what it is that makes John's flute that much better but the difference is certainly there, maybe it's attention to small details maybe it's just something else altogether that can't be spoken. Dave's flutes are quite nice and he is one of the easiest makers to work with plus his wait is usually fairly short but I just don't think they have the same character as some of the other makers out there. I would put Casey Burns's flutes and customer service on a similar level as Copley's; although I'd say Casey's flutes probably have a bit more character! Really good flutes, no doubt, but lacking a little something that might make me say they are excellent flutes.

A friend of mine got a Glen Watson flute not too long ago and it is quite nice, I found the low E spoke shockingly easily, but I haven't spent enough time with any of those flutes to really compare.

Perhaps the question to ask is: can a player really notice all of the subtle differences between X maker and Y maker before they've reached a certain level as a player?
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Unseen122 wrote:I can't quite explain what it is that makes John's flute that much better but the difference is certainly there, maybe it's attention to small details maybe it's just something else altogether that can't be spoken.
Perhaps you just know it better because you play it the most and can get the most out of it?
Perhaps the question to ask is: can a player really notice all of the subtle differences between X maker and Y maker before they've reached a certain level as a player?
Can you, and have you? And, above all, what is 'character'?

While having some idea of the level to which you've studied and neither making similar claims for myself nor trying to argue the case for one maker I've tried against others I haven't (note my reluctance above to add names to this discussion at all), I'm intrigued by the apparent certainty with which you rate your Gallagher's superiority.
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
User avatar
Unseen122
Posts: 3542
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 7:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Of course I'm not a bot; I've been here for years... Apparently that isn't enough to pass muster though!
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Unseen122 »

Peter Duggan wrote:
Unseen122 wrote:I can't quite explain what it is that makes John's flute that much better but the difference is certainly there, maybe it's attention to small details maybe it's just something else altogether that can't be spoken.
Perhaps you just know it better because you play it the most and can get the most out of it?
Perhaps the question to ask is: can a player really notice all of the subtle differences between X maker and Y maker before they've reached a certain level as a player?
Can you, and have you? And, above all, what is 'character'?

While having some idea of the level to which you've studied and neither making similar claims for myself nor trying to argue the case for one maker I've tried against others I haven't (note my reluctance above to add names to this discussion at all), I'm intrigued by the apparent certainty with which you rate your Gallagher's superiority.
To the first point, the Copley Eb I used to own I had for 5-6 years before I got the Gallagher and the difference in quality was apparent as soon as I got the Gallagher. So, while that is a valid point I do play the Gallagher more, I've owned more Copleys for longer periods of time and can still say the Gallagher is of a higher quality.

What I really love about my Gallagher flute is that it has a huge tonal palate, it may not be the easiest flute to play but really getting to know it has been incredibly rewarding. Compare that to Nov. and Dec. of last year when I was playing the Copley delrin as my main flute, the Gallagher was back with John getting an overhaul, and I just started to get annoyed after a while because I missed the massive range of tone and dynamics on the Gallagher which just aren't there on the Copley. This range of tone and dynamics is what I really love about the Gallagher and have not encountered in many other flutes; perhaps also in a Wilkes I played once.

OK my use of the word character was somewhat vague, I guess what I mean by that is one is a good quality musical instrument the other is a unique work of art. For instance everybody (and I mean everybody!) asks if my Gallagher is an antique, I don't think this would happen with a comparable keyed Copley.

I absolutely can tell subtle differences between different flutes, even by the same maker, would I be able to know all of them after a few minutes of playing? No, but I would start to have a good idea, for instance notice how excited I was in my last post by how easily the low E spoke on my friend's new Glen Watson flute which I played a few tunes on once a couple of months back. Also on a similar line of thinking, I have played Grinter flutes that I absolutely loved and others that I didn't like at all.

That being said, I am not claiming to be able to tell every minute difference in every flute ever made nor do I think anyone can. My point is, more-so, if a person isn't at a level where they can begin to notice a lot of subtle differences in each and every flute they try, anything that is well made will serve them well until they feel like there are things they want to do which the flute they own prohibits them from doing (like when I wanted a flute that had more mid-range than the beastly Martin Doyle flute I used to have which resulted in me getting the Gallagher). Also, how much does any of this matter if a person has a flute they like that suits their needs and plays in a way that satisfies them? I happen to be someone who tends to be very picky about all sorts of minutiae in all aspects of my life and also attempts to make a living from playing music. Based off of that info, it shouldn't be surprising that I expect great things out of one of the main tools of my trade and would be prepared to spend as much and wait as long as necessary/I could afford to get that level of quality because I will notice the difference even if it is incredibly subtle. If another person's goal is to play for fun than their needs probably won't be the same as mine and they shouldn't get a flute based only off of the fact that myself, or an even more experienced player than me, likes a particular make. Peter, if you played my flute you may not have to same impression I do of these things and may still prefer your Copley (even if you had mine for an extended period of time to really get to know it) which is why I go back to what I said in the last post, this is all subjective and, would add, the best judge of what is going to be a good flute for a particular player is that player them self.
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Unseen122 wrote:I absolutely can tell subtle differences between different flutes, even by the same maker, would I be able to know all of them after a few minutes of playing? No, but I would start to have a good idea,
I'm well aware of subtle differences between my Copley Solomon Blackwood four-key and my Copley keyless Delrin. Not because one's keyed and one's keyless, or one's wood and one polymer, but because they're not exactly the same. And, while I start adapting to the Delrin when I'm playing it more, I'm always glad to get back to the wood for both its keys and the playing qualities I treasure in it. They're both good, but the wood is ultimately better... not because it's wood, but because it's better.
for instance notice how excited I was in my last post by how easily the low E spoke on my friend's new Glen Watson flute which I played a few tunes on once a couple of months back.
Yes, I'd noticed, but still wasn't sure where this put Watson on your scale when 'quite nice' seemed to suggest with Copley and Burns.
Also on a similar line of thinking, I have played Grinter flutes that I absolutely loved and others that I didn't like at all.
See my comments on my Copleys. Not that I dislike one of them, but I have a definite preference for the other.
If another person's goal is to play for fun than their needs probably won't be the same as mine and they shouldn't get a flute based only off of the fact that myself, or an even more experienced player than me, likes a particular make.
My goals are somewhere between. I'm a music professional (now longtime school teacher) but play mainly for me. I need quality, but not necessarily an Olwell or Wilkes.
Peter, if you played my flute you may not have to same impression I do of these things and may still prefer your Copley (even if you had mine for an extended period of time to really get to know it) which is why I go back to what I said in the last post, this is all subjective and, would add, the best judge of what is going to be a good flute for a particular player is that player them self.
Yes, you did say 'subjective' and I nearly mentioned that along with (my own words) 'apparent certainty' in my previous reply. I might or might not prefer the way your Gallagher plays, but I can tell you now I wouldn't want it because my Copley was built for my nine fingers and no flute that's not is half the use to me. So I have my own 'unique piece of art' which I'm effectively restricted to, have neither need nor desire to go chasing alternatives when it fits me like a glove, I love it and can't afford to go commissioning further specials of no value to anyone else, and am thankful that I got a good one.
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
Flutulator
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:33 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Here for a bit to get info on adding another keyed lefty flute to my instrument collection. Preferably something from a highly respected maker. Been playing since 2006.
Location: Where the mud roams wild

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Flutulator »

A few more to consider:
Sam Murray (You can buy a keyless *now* online from a shop in Ireland)
Terry McGee
Martin Doyle
Eamonn Cotter

I have no idea what step each would be placed on in some ideal "Great Chain of Being." I went with a Murray because I had a friend who let me borrow hers for an extended period and I quite liked it. Still don't regret it.
My name is John. It is NOT "OP." :) :)
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

See, it's just another list of good flute makers. And I've knowingly contributed to it being that by adding to it! But are any of us surprised that's what it is?
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
User avatar
Tjones
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:16 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Pacific Northwest
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Tjones »

Most of the major makers are producing instruments that are in tune and have good intonation, so what do the better makers do that make their flutes stand out.

I think a very important question is, what makes a “Top-end Flute”? With the many excellent flute makers today, what is it that distinguish one from the other. What are the qualities we should be looking for as players. What’s the magic that makes it be a “top end flute”?

What are we trying to say when terms are used like these:

“strong projection due to its reedy tone”. “lively flute with excellent intonation”
“...crushing the notes yet supported delicate phrasing.” a sweet second octave.
“... a perfect balance of power, responsiveness, and tone” ...etc.

What does a flute maker do to achieve excellence. Is it in the cutting of the embouchure, the voicing of the flute. And how does the ergonomics of the flute and how it feels in the hands effect the playing?
kmag
Posts: 399
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:55 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I try my best to play the flute and pipes. I have been coming here for years and now are required to fill this out for an address change.
Location: Coos Bay Oregon

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by kmag »

Peter Duggan wrote:
Unseen122 wrote:I absolutely can tell subtle differences between different flutes, even by the same maker, would I be able to know all of them after a few minutes of playing? No, but I would start to have a good idea,
I'm well aware of subtle differences between my Copley Solomon Blackwood four-key and my Copley keyless Delrin. Not because one's keyed and one's keyless, or one's wood and one polymer, but because they're not exactly the same. And, while I start adapting to the Delrin when I'm playing it more, I'm always glad to get back to the wood for both its keys and the playing qualities I treasure in it. They're both good, but the wood is ultimately better... not because it's wood, but because it's better.
for instance notice how excited I was in my last post by how easily the low E spoke on my friend's new Glen Watson flute which I played a few tunes on once a couple of months back.
Yes, I'd noticed, but still wasn't sure where this put Watson on your scale when 'quite nice' seemed to suggest with Copley and Burns.
Also on a similar line of thinking, I have played Grinter flutes that I absolutely loved and others that I didn't like at all.
See my comments on my Copleys. Not that I dislike one of them, but I have a definite preference for the other.
If another person's goal is to play for fun than their needs probably won't be the same as mine and they shouldn't get a flute based only off of the fact that myself, or an even more experienced player than me, likes a particular make.
My goals are somewhere between. I'm a music professional (now longtime school teacher) but play mainly for me. I need quality, but not necessarily an Olwell or Wilkes.
Peter, if you played my flute you may not have to same impression I do of these things and may still prefer your Copley (even if you had mine for an extended period of time to really get to know it) which is why I go back to what I said in the last post, this is all subjective and, would add, the best judge of what is going to be a good flute for a particular player is that player them self.
Yes, you did say 'subjective' and I nearly mentioned that along with (my own words) 'apparent certainty' in my previous reply. I might or might not prefer the way your Gallagher plays, but I can tell you now I wouldn't want it because my Copley was built for my nine fingers and no flute that's not is half the use to me. So I have my own 'unique piece of art' which I'm effectively restricted to, have neither need nor desire to go chasing alternatives when it fits me like a glove, I love it and can't afford to go commissioning further specials of no value to anyone else, and am thankful that I got a good one.
This is the type of exchange I love to see.
User avatar
Unseen122
Posts: 3542
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 7:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Of course I'm not a bot; I've been here for years... Apparently that isn't enough to pass muster though!
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Unseen122 »

Peter Duggan wrote:
Unseen122 wrote:I absolutely can tell subtle differences between different flutes, even by the same maker, would I be able to know all of them after a few minutes of playing? No, but I would start to have a good idea,
I'm well aware of subtle differences between my Copley Solomon Blackwood four-key and my Copley keyless Delrin. Not because one's keyed and one's keyless, or one's wood and one polymer, but because they're not exactly the same. And, while I start adapting to the Delrin when I'm playing it more, I'm always glad to get back to the wood for both its keys and the playing qualities I treasure in it. They're both good, but the wood is ultimately better... not because it's wood, but because it's better.
for instance notice how excited I was in my last post by how easily the low E spoke on my friend's new Glen Watson flute which I played a few tunes on once a couple of months back.
Yes, I'd noticed, but still wasn't sure where this put Watson on your scale when 'quite nice' seemed to suggest with Copley and Burns.
Also on a similar line of thinking, I have played Grinter flutes that I absolutely loved and others that I didn't like at all.
See my comments on my Copleys. Not that I dislike one of them, but I have a definite preference for the other.
If another person's goal is to play for fun than their needs probably won't be the same as mine and they shouldn't get a flute based only off of the fact that myself, or an even more experienced player than me, likes a particular make.
My goals are somewhere between. I'm a music professional (now longtime school teacher) but play mainly for me. I need quality, but not necessarily an Olwell or Wilkes.
Peter, if you played my flute you may not have to same impression I do of these things and may still prefer your Copley (even if you had mine for an extended period of time to really get to know it) which is why I go back to what I said in the last post, this is all subjective and, would add, the best judge of what is going to be a good flute for a particular player is that player them self.
Yes, you did say 'subjective' and I nearly mentioned that along with (my own words) 'apparent certainty' in my previous reply. I might or might not prefer the way your Gallagher plays, but I can tell you now I wouldn't want it because my Copley was built for my nine fingers and no flute that's not is half the use to me. So I have my own 'unique piece of art' which I'm effectively restricted to, have neither need nor desire to go chasing alternatives when it fits me like a glove, I love it and can't afford to go commissioning further specials of no value to anyone else, and am thankful that I got a good one.
This is exactly what I am getting at, what fits one person's needs won't necessarily fit another's needs. The Gallagher fits me quite well and I wouldn't trade it for anything but just because that is the case for me doesn't mean anyone else would feel that.

RE: Watson flutes, I really haven't spent enough time with any of these instruments to say where I would put them in the grand scheme of things.

I will make a point to add quality of build as a consideration in all of this, these things don't necessarily mean the flute will play better but often times the I think the difference between quite good and exceptional lies in these small details. Peter, as a music teacher you know that when a player gets to a certain point it really starts to come down to nit-picking certain things i.e. the attack could have been cleaner in this place and that one note was a hair flat verses the beginner who's getting through a piece with few obvious mistakes would be good progress. Comparing the Copley and Gallagher flutes comes down to things like this, for instance, John uses forged keys as opposed to casting them like on the Copley's; forging is a much more time-consuming process but yields a much more durable result. Will it affect tone and play-ability? Probably not, but it will add to the cost of production. Along those lines, John extends the wood on the barrel over the female end of the tuning slide so there is no metal exposed, it's a unique touch and a fine detail but it doesn't really change the way the instrument plays. Also, John's higher end flutes come with Northwind cases, another higher end touch that doesn't change the way the instrument plays. All of these things will affect the price, hence the fact that John charges more, but doesn't mean one is a better player than the other.

On the subject of price; if we look at flute-makers as independent craftspeople we can notice similarities between them and other independent artists and craftspeople. So if a maker charges more for their instruments a consumer will probably assume it is of a higher quality than one from a different make. Does that mean it will be? Likely yes but it would be dangerous to assume an expensive flute will suit a person better than one that costs less based on price alone. As this is a small industry that is very tight nit, if someone is charging a premium for a low quality product they will gain a reputation for doing so and will either go out of business or be forced to adjust their prices. In the same way that if someone asks me, an independent musician, for a quote to hire me and I am charging more than someone else who provides a similar service they will probably think I provide a better service and hire me if quality is important to them. I would assume instrument makers price their instruments based on the quality they are confident they can produce; otherwise they will have a lot of dissatisfied customers! The point is that if a maker is charging a premium a player should expect to get a premium instrument; whether or not that suits their needs is a different subject entirely!

Along these same lines, I think each maker spends a certain amount of time perfecting their craft and figuring out which sub-section of this small market they are serving. In the same way I am always trying to figure out which demographics will be most interested in the music I am producing, a maker will find their main place in this market and seek to serve that area mostly and/or serve different sub-sections of the market differently. Along the lines of this is the way Casey Burns will make batches of folk flutes that are all pretty similar but will provide a really individualized process for his higher end instruments. I had a Bb on order from Casey last year and he happened to be coming down to Portland during that time, we met up and discussed the way I play and he took measurements of my hands to make an instrument that suits my needs, physicality, and playing style. The result is, a good friend of mine here also has a boxwood Bb from Casey and we have fairly different flutes because mine was made for me and his was made for him.

In the context of not knowing a player, when they ask here about what is a good flute all we can really do is list a bunch of makers who produce quality instruments. If we aren't intimately familiar with that player's style and needs we can't really tell them what would be best for them!

Glad you're enjoying the exchange, kmag, I always get a bit worried posting long rambling things on here!

Tom, those are exactly the questions we should be asking in any thread like this! As I said earlier in this post I really think it comes down to fine details that distinguish between really good and exceptional (in many contexts not just here!) and some people will be perfectly happy with very good and some will stop at nothing to find exceptional (once again, not just in this context) but I really do think it comes down to the individual finding what flute is the best fit for them. As players it is hard for us to really know what a maker does to make a really exceptional flute, and I suspect they may have just as hard a time expressing how they do it as we do trying to express what makes one flute greater than another to any one player.

Who was it that said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" (or something like that, I may be paraphrasing without knowing it)? Seems an appropriate quote for this thread!
User avatar
dcopley
Posts: 354
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Loveland Ohio
Contact:

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by dcopley »

Unseen122 wrote: Comparing the Copley and Gallagher flutes comes down to things like this, for instance, John uses forged keys as opposed to casting them like on the Copley's; forging is a much more time-consuming process but yields a much more durable result. Will it affect tone and play-ability? Probably not, but it will add to the cost of production.
An interesting discussion but I would take exception to the above statement. You are correct that forging keys is a much more time consuming process than casting, but wrong in saying that it yields a much more durable result. This may have been true with 19th century casting techniques, but modern silver alloys and casting methods, with subsequent solution heat treat and age hardening, result in a key many times stronger than in needs to be. I don't recall ever having to repair any of our cast keys.
Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio
www.copleyflutes.com
User avatar
an seanduine
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: just outside Xanadu

Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by an seanduine »

Thank you Dave. Metallurgy has come a long way from table-top 'potato-steam powered' casting. :D

Bob
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
Post Reply