Top-end Flutes?

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Peter Duggan
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Unseen122 wrote:Comparing the Copley and Gallagher flutes comes down to things like this, for instance, John uses forged keys as opposed to casting them like on the Copley's; forging is a much more time-consuming process but yields a much more durable result. Will it affect tone and play-ability? Probably not, but it will add to the cost of production. Along those lines, John extends the wood on the barrel over the female end of the tuning slide so there is no metal exposed, it's a unique touch and a fine detail but it doesn't really change the way the instrument plays. Also, John's higher end flutes come with Northwind cases, another higher end touch that doesn't change the way the instrument plays. All of these things will affect the price, hence the fact that John charges more, but doesn't mean one is a better player than the other.
But (noting also Dave's reply re. strength/durability of modern cast keys), I don't need forged keys, covered tuning slide and a Northwind case. I was attracted to Dave's flutes by the combination of reputation and price point, which was exactly what the OP was asking about. Further up (and please note I'm discussing, not arguing/fighting!) you extol the playing qualities of your Gallagher ('massive range of tone and dynamics on the Gallagher which just aren't there on the Copley'), but now start stressing non-playing things instead. The original question was 'Who do people consider are contemporary flutemakers who produce work of similar quality, but at a more reasonable price?' To which my answer was Copley and yours Gallagher. Now you appear to be questioning Copley as an answer on quality grounds and I'm perhaps questioning Gallagher on price... well, I don't know, because I don't know what Gallaghers cost, but what I must say is firstly that I don't consider the cost of an Olwell unreasonable if you want an Olwell, and secondly, well... if you want an Olwell, get an Olwell; if you want a Copley, get a Copley; if you want a Gallagher, get a Gallagher. And so on.
Along the lines of this is the way Casey Burns will make batches of folk flutes that are all pretty similar but will provide a really individualized process for his higher end instruments. I had a Bb on order from Casey last year and he happened to be coming down to Portland during that time, we met up and discussed the way I play and he took measurements of my hands to make an instrument that suits my needs, physicality, and playing style.
And you know the trouble Dave Copley took to meet my needs? Two meetings in the UK (one at Derby, to which I travelled, and one at my mother's house near Glasgow, to which he did), and endless discussion, experimentation and fine-tuning of a unique key layout. To make an instrument that suits my needs, physicality, and playing style. You just couldn't have gone further than Dave to do this, and to get it right!
Glad you're enjoying the exchange, kmag, I always get a bit worried posting long rambling things on here!
Glad here too... sometimes hard to discuss hard in typed words without risk of more aggressive or argumentative interpretation, but still seems to be going OK here?
As I said earlier in this post I really think it comes down to fine details that distinguish between really good and exceptional (in many contexts not just here!) and some people will be perfectly happy with very good and some will stop at nothing to find exceptional (once again, not just in this context) but I really do think it comes down to the individual finding what flute is the best fit for them.
Yes, the fine details distinguish my flute from any other flute and I have a truly exceptional flute (photos and full description linked here). Since it's necessarily unique, it's the only fit for me.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Kirk B »

These are always interesting discussions. I think once you get to certain quality level of flute then what makes one flute better than the other is how well you learn how to play it. I think you could take any of the makers that have been listed in this thread and if you took one of their flutes and played it exclusively for a year it would become just as good to you as if you had picked any of the others.

I was at a session a few years ago and the guy next to me had an Olwell flute. I have a Glen Watson 6-key. We swapped flutes for a couple of tunes and you know what. We both sounded like ourselves no matter which flute we were playing. He had a very different style from mine be he sounded the same on both flutes, as did I. And to me, the Olwell felt and played exactly like my Watson. It had a two-piece body so i'm assuming it was a Nicholson or Rudall which would be closer to the style of my Watson but still, that really surprised me given what I've heard about Olwells. I had fully expected a beam of golden light to shine down upon me, the clouds to part, and cherubs to fly down from the sky and give me a neck massage as soon as I blew the first note. Nope, it just felt and sounded like my flute without as many keys.

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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by jim stone »

I just want to add that, for me, an issue with J. Gallagher's eight-keyed flute was the weight.
My old wrist left wrist (I'm a confirmed geezer) couldn't bear it without injury.
Otherwise it seemed a fine flute, and I don't suppose others will have
my problem. Certainly never seen other reports of it. But it might be an issue
for some people.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by chas »

Kirk B wrote:These are always interesting discussions. I think once you get to certain quality level of flute then what makes one flute better than the other is how well you learn how to play it. I think you could take any of the makers that have been listed in this thread and if you took one of their flutes and played it exclusively for a year it would become just as good to you as if you had picked any of the others.
I'd go a little further and say once you get to a certain quality, what makes one flute better than another is how well it suits your playing. I've owned many of the flutes mentioned, and I've never been able to play a Pratten-style flute. I played a Hammy exclusively for a year and a half. I had a large-holed Olwell for a few weeks. I never got along with either of them. So, while there's no doubt in my mind that the Hammy is a top-tier instrument and a Bleazey middlin' at most, I sound way better on the Bleazey.
I was at a session a few years ago and the guy next to me had an Olwell flute. I have a Glen Watson 6-key. We swapped flutes for a couple of tunes and you know what. We both sounded like ourselves no matter which flute we were playing. He had a very different style from mine be he sounded the same on both flutes, as did I. And to me, the Olwell felt and played exactly like my Watson. It had a two-piece body so i'm assuming it was a Nicholson or Rudall which would be closer to the style of my Watson but still, that really surprised me given what I've heard about Olwells. I had fully expected a beam of golden light to shine down upon me, the clouds to part, and cherubs to fly down from the sky and give me a neck massage as soon as I blew the first note. Nope, it just felt and sounded like my flute without as many keys.
I agree 100% with this. I tend to play different types of music on different flutes. I play mostly Irish on the Olwell and English (Playford tunes) on the Noy, getting the different sounds from them suitable to the music I'm playing. A couple of years ago, I picked up the Noy thinking it was the Olwell. I couldn't tell the difference till one tune went particularly high, where there are tuning differences between the flutes. I was impressed that I could get the fat sound from the Noy, since I'd always played it with a clearer sound.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Unseen122 »

dcopley wrote:
Unseen122 wrote: Comparing the Copley and Gallagher flutes comes down to things like this, for instance, John uses forged keys as opposed to casting them like on the Copley's; forging is a much more time-consuming process but yields a much more durable result. Will it affect tone and play-ability? Probably not, but it will add to the cost of production.
An interesting discussion but I would take exception to the above statement. You are correct that forging keys is a much more time consuming process than casting, but wrong in saying that it yields a much more durable result. This may have been true with 19th century casting techniques, but modern silver alloys and casting methods, with subsequent solution heat treat and age hardening, result in a key many times stronger than in needs to be. I don't recall ever having to repair any of our cast keys.
My apologies Dave, obviously I was misinformed and you clearly know more on the subject than I do! Further evidence that a person shouldn't take things they read online as gospel!

Peter, I didn't take this as fighting or arguing, I expressed an opinion and you pressed me to substantiate it; I've done the best I can considering the medium! Difficult, but I think we've stayed civil and haven't degenerated into ad hominem style attacks so that is always good! :)

My point in bringing up small construction details is, more-so, to explore objective points in which one could say one is of a higher quality v the other and not rely on subjective playing terms. I've done the best I can to explain why I prefer the way one plays over the other and feel like I would just start talking in circles if I continued to do so! As I said it's these small touches that, IMO, differentiate between very good and exceptional. That doesn't mean one would suit a certain player over the other just that it may explain differences in pricing, reputation, etc. As I said it would be dangerous to assume something is better because of the price but I do also think that, to a certain extent, you get what you pay for. (If buying new, used Olwells sell for a substantial mark-up due to the wait time for a new one, desirability, and other market factors.) Also, that reputations should be taken with a grain of salt but not dismissed entirely, if someone like Matt Molloy is playing an Olwell it is probably a fine flute but getting one isn't going to make you sound like Matt nor are you guaranteed to feel the same way about it as Matt does. Personally, I think the Molloy factor contributes a lot to the reputation of Olwells! (Or the Crawford factor for Grinters, etc.)

The original topic was about flutes comparable to Olwells which have a, deserved (even if I haven't been particularly fond of the way they play), reputation for superior quality. I do quite like Copley flutes and have been an outspoken supporter of Dave's work on this forum for a number of years. Your experience with Dave, and my own in working with him, are reasons I would say he has some of the best customer service in this industry. The topic is about top-end flutes and I have tried to express what I think fits that description. There are a lot of instances where I would recommend one of Dave's flutes and wouldn't own a D/C delrin set if I didn't like his work! However, I interpreted the question being asked as what is a good substitute for an Olwell that doesn't have the substantial wait or after market mark-up. I made my recommendation based off of this assumption; much in the same way, if this were about acoustic guitars, I wouldn't recommend a recent Martin DC-15 as a substitute for a pre-war D-18, even though I have one (a recent dc-15 not the pre-war!) and like it a lot, as I wouldn't think it fits the bill! (Or name any really high-end instrument vs. something that is of solid quality but isn't the 'creme de la creme' of it's field!)

I would agree with the comments by chas, Kirk, and Tjones, there are many fine flute makers listed in the thread, personally I would still rate some higher than others based off of factors I've outlined in previous posts, but one really couldn't go wrong with any of them! If one has specific needs as a player and is really aware of what those needs are, then it's time to acquaint one's self with the various nuances of each and go for one based off of that rather than what a bunch of us say are 'good quality' or what have you.

I do think discussions like this, when everybody remains civil, do serve us as players and will also serve any makers reading this to look at ways in which they can improve their craft (even if it is uncomfortable to have your creative output looked at in very critical terms!). I would not describe any of these instruments as bad; however I would say there are differences in quality even if they become smaller and smaller towards the higher end. I think most here would agree, there is a much bigger difference between a Pakistani flute-shaped-object and a Copley than there is between a Copley and an Olwell!
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Kirk B »

chas wrote: I'd go a little further and say once you get to a certain quality, what makes one flute better than another is how well it suits your playing. I've owned many of the flutes mentioned, and I've never been able to play a Pratten-style flute.
I would agree. If you have trouble with a particular type of flute then maybe it makes sense to go with something different. I went from a Forbes Delrin Pratten to my Watson and it was a considerable change. The Forbes has a low "D" that can knock a buzzard off a gut wagon and it has a more forgiving embouchure hole. The Watson embouchure is pretty demanding but once I played it for several months I dialed it in and now I love it. And I think it made me a better player as far as my tone goes. I'm not sure there's much that can help my mechanics though. :(
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by ScottMaurer »

Unseen122 wrote: however I would say there are differences in quality even if they become smaller and smaller towards the higher end. I think most here would agree, there is a much bigger difference between a Pakistani flute-shaped-object and a Copley than there is between a Copley and an Olwell!
This is the eternal story of price to value. The higher you go in price the smaller the gains in value from the previous price category. Owning both an olwell and a delrin Copley, I can assess a number of differences between their performance qualities. The Copley has a remarkably forgiving embouchure cut that facilitates incredible volume and a nice pure powerful tone. Not so the olwell it still has a pretty easy embouchure cut but its definitely harder than the Copley but it facilitates a complexity of tone that I find very much more difficult to achieve on the Copley. The olwell has a broader range of tonal characters all within easy reach, the Copley is optimized for a hard pure sound and is harder to get that variation that comes so naturally with the other flute. None of these things speaks at all to the overall quality of the instruments though. I find the Olwell to be better for me but if you want to play the way the Copley plays,i bet you would like it better. So it seems that value past a point is subjective, ignoring that the Copley is made from plastic and the olwell blackwood and sterling silver. I would rate the difference between the olwell and Copley at about 5-10%. The price is of course way more than that differential but the value difference between the Copley and a tipple with a similar price multiplier is considerably greater. The Copley is at least twice as good as the tipple.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by colomon »

Sorry to wander slightly off target, but ...
ScottMaurer wrote:The Copley has a remarkably forgiving embouchure cut that facilitates incredible volume and a nice pure powerful tone.
Is this a general take on Copley flutes? I've been meaning to stop by his workshop and give them a try sometime (he's only about ten minutes from a cousin of mine) and this makes it sound like his flutes might be exactly what I would love to find in a flute.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

colomon wrote:Is this a general take on Copley flutes?
Dunno... anecdotally, maybe yes and no. We seem to hear a fair bit on here (talking C&F in general rather than just this topic) about the forgiving embouchure but, while it's true that I've found my familiar Copleys easier to blow than some unfamiliar flutes (e.g. a friend's Baubet, where I could disconcertingly barely get the low E to sound), I've found others (e.g. another friend's early? Olwell) just as easy. At the same time, my Copleys still demand me to get it right when chasing the sound I really want, and some days (or even weeks) it's just not there if I've not put in the practice. And, unlike some on here (again C&F in general), I find them capable of both the hard, reedy, edgy tone I love for some repertoire and a whole range of more rounded sounds. So easy to blow, yes, but easy to get the best out of? I'm not so sure, but doesn't that bring us right back to 1. they're flutes and don't play themselves, 2. everyone knows their own flute(s) best, and 3. you have to work at them to get to know them, find out what they can do and make that work for you?
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Peter Duggan wrote:a friend's Baubet, where I could disconcertingly barely get the low E to sound
And who's to say the embouchure/method I've developed for getting the sound I like from my Copleys didn't actually put me at a disadvantage compared to someone else trying the Baubet? I was certainly surprised because that's the only flute of any sort where I can remember having an obvious problem producing a perfectly standard note!
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Unseen122 »

colomon wrote:Sorry to wander slightly off target, but ...
ScottMaurer wrote:The Copley has a remarkably forgiving embouchure cut that facilitates incredible volume and a nice pure powerful tone.
Is this a general take on Copley flutes? I've been meaning to stop by his workshop and give them a try sometime (he's only about ten minutes from a cousin of mine) and this makes it sound like his flutes might be exactly what I would love to find in a flute.
FYI
Copley & Boegli Website wrote:Embouchure Holes

We currently offer two cuts of embouchure hole. The traditional elliptical style is standard and provides a wide range of tonal flexibility. A slightly more squared ellipse is also available. Some players prefer it on the Delrin flutes, where it gives a marginally louder response and is a little more forgiving of embouchure variation.
Here's the page.

I've found this to be true, had the standard on the Eb I used to have and the squared one on the delrins.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Unseen122 wrote:I've found this to be true, had the standard on the Eb I used to have and the squared one on the delrins.
Ah, that's interesting... I have (quite deliberately when my Delrin D/Eb keyless was both a test bed, and longer-term partner, for my four-key) standard elliptical on both of my Copley heads. And I'd have chosen it even if I'd had the four-key made in Delrin, as I was planning to do before being seduced by the Solomon Blackwood.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by an seanduine »

Errm. When we enter into a discussion about embouchure cuts we get into the 'black art' of flute-smithing. Generally the standard for the undercutting of a garden variety Boehm flute is described as being 'approximately 7 degrees' off vertical'. Try measuring this accurately and repeatably without a sine-bar or similar mensuration set-up and you will find an exercise in frustration. And even then, with high end flutes, often times the appeal is that the embouchure is hand cut and is the product of the makers knowledge and experience.
With our flutes this is very much the situation. The general dimensions of the hole are set. . .but the final voicing is strictly from the hand of the maker. Pat Olwell has said this 'final voicing' can take several weeks. I am certain the same is true for other top makers. But even so, what one maker prefers is not necessarily what another prefers. Vive la difference.

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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by jim stone »

Just to add that I have the elliptical cut on Dave's bottom of the line delrin flute, and it's louder n' hell! If you have a reasonably well-developed embouchure, you're not just starting, it's fine.
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Re: Top-end Flutes?

Post by colomon »

jim stone wrote:Just to add that I have the elliptical cut on Dave's bottom of the line delrin flute, and it's louder n' hell! If you have a reasonably well-developed embouchure, you're not just starting, it's fine.
Yes, well, my embouchure is terrible. Basically I don't play the flute because it's not fun to play for me right now. Of course, I know that in theory I should be practicing flute diligently every day and consulting skilled teachers to improve my playing. But that hasn't worked for me for the last dozen years, and right now I'm not at a place in my life where I am likely to dedicate any significant amount of time doing optional things that aren't fun because they are hypothetically good for me. Maybe a couple of decades from now when I retire, but not now.

I'd love to play flute. I'm pretty sure if I had an flute that was fun for me to play even with my crappy embouchure, then I'd practice flute a fair amount and get better at it. That actually how it worked on whistle for me -- after several false starts over the decades, I got an instrument that suited me and I was off to the races.
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