Chiff and Fipple Forums

I finally have my CITES permits. Everything is pretty straightforward. This affects International shipments only.

A photo copy of the USDA Aphis Permit must be included with the export documentation. Specific individual CITES permits issued along with the Master File must also accompany each shipment. I have to fill in the consignee, as well as the number of flutes I am sending (I have some clients who order more than one flute at a time). The Single Issue Permits are good for 6 months so in September the 10 that I have will expire if unused and I will need to order another 10 or more at $5 each.

A record needs to be made of every International shipment and when re-ordering the Single Issue Permits I am required to report my International Sales and submit copies of the sent out Single Use Permits.

Finally, before shipping the flutes out, I have to take them to a certified USDA/USFWS inspector who has to certify, stamp and sign the permits. For me the nearest inspector is at SeaTac Airport, an hour and a half commute away! One of the routes has a $6 bridge toll. The other one has a ferry toll which can get expensive in the summer - not to mention the wait times. And then there is the traffic which is always bad! For my friend Murray Huggins in Ashland Oregon, its worse. He has to travel all the way to Portland and back to send his bagpipes out of the country.

I'll probably arrange it so that I do an International Shipping Day once a month or every other month as needed, to minimize this transportation. Currently I have 3 international orders, two almost completed which I'll send out this week and one just underway. I'll report back on how the inspection process goes.

Another requirement: the permit number must be printed on all documents and advertisements involving activities conducted under the permit. Thus on my Website I have a few places where I have added this info and some that I still have to.

Casey

What a hassle! You must have a lot more patience than I do.

Casey -- since you've done so much research on this, it might be worth posting a sticky on this forum about CITES implications for buyers and sellers of flutes, since there's a lot of confusion and not much information. I think people have the following questions:

1. If I live in the US and am buying a blackwood (aka grenadilla or m'pingo) flute from a maker or seller in another country, do I need to worry about CITES certification?
2. If I live outside the US and am buying a blackwood flute from a maker or seller in the US, what CITES paperwork needs to be provided for export?
3. Are other countries affected (e.g., if I live in France and want to buy a blackwood flute from a maker in Ireland, would CITES paperwork be required?)

If there's a website that provides all that information, great, we just need a link.

Add to Brad's sticky info list—What, if any documentation do I need to travel across an international border with a blackwood flute?

Best wishes.

Steve

I'll work on a sticky - provided I get a chance. Had that crud that is going around everywhere. That and doing some retooling to be able to rose engine engrave my flute bands has gotten me way behind on getting flutes out the door!

To answer Brad's and Steve's questions:

Only the maker who is the exporter needs to provide the CITES documentation. In the US a permit specifically issued for that instrument from the FWS, as well as a copy of the APHIS (USDA) permit must accompany the instrument's export documentation on the outside of the package when it is being shipped from the maker to the recipient. I do not know what other countries require besides the CITES document but I suspect its similar. All countries that are signatories to CITES are affected and this includes most.

Under the treaty and listing, individuals are allowed to travel across international borders with blackwood and rosewood instruments collectively weighing up to 22 pounds before any kind of permit or documentation is required. Note that this does not include Brazilian Rosewood which is protected under a more restrictive CITES listing.

Yesterday I spoke to the inspector at the APHIS/USDA office for Washington State located at SeaTac airport. I am emailing him copies of the permits this morning so he can look them over. On Monday I am showing up there with 3 flutes all headed to Great Britain and Ireland and the permits, which he will sign and stamp. Afterwards I am heading north into Seattle to visit with some close friends for lunch and will mail these flutes off then. It will make sense to do a monthly or semi monthly trip to SeaTac before shipping off any Blackwood flutes, and just let the international orders accumulate so I am not having to do this for every single instrument!

Casey

Do you know if there is a permit required to send a flute back to its maker for repair? If I have a letter from its maker that he made it before Cities II and explaining that it is going back to him for repair will that be enough? thanks in advance for any comments.

That is a good theoretical question. Please ask more - as I will be seeing the CITES inspector on Monday and will be asking him that and other questions. Sometimes my clients send me their flutes for adjustments etc.

I suppose the same permit as originally sent with the flute for anything sent originally after Jan 2nd would suffice. But from before that is a grey area. Imagine trying to bring an antique elephant tusk through customs - you will still run into problems.

Casey

Thanks for checking on this! I have an email out to US Fish Game and Wildlife, but I'm not holding my breath for hearing from them any time soon.

Well this could get interesting. I have the 3 flutes about to be exported and both required permits for each signed and ready to go. Except that the CITES inspector this morning cautioned me to surely check with the CITES officials in the countries these are headed to (Ireland and Switzerland) to see if an import permit is required. A casual look on the Internet reveals that these are required. Now the question is am I required to get these or are my clients? Am suspecting the latter.

I asked about repairs, etc. and sending flutes back and forth. Since these couldn't be sales, but repairs, theoretically they wouldn't be considered "trade" - but to be on the safe side permits are recommended. Also, the $5 permits that the USFWS issues are for one transit only - the same permit cannot be used for sending the flute back.

For eBay sales, permits will have to be obtained.

I'll persist through this to see the process in its entirety and successfully - but its looking best to recommend non-CITES woods for exporting out of the country to avoid this hassle. Am picking up some curly maple tomorrow to experiment with (and having it acrylic impregnated). Fortunately the majority of my clients are in the US and they are not affected by this.

Casey

Further info. I contacted the authorities in both Ireland and Switzerland. Ireland requires an import CITES permit which my clients will have to obtain. Currently Switzerland doesn't require this but that is about to change on May 1st.

Interesting note in the news today. Fender has stopped using Rosewood in all their guitars - so for fingerboards they will be using Pau Ferro. Its an okay wood for flutes as well - though I became sensitive to it and can't really use it. Am looking more into alternatives to CITES listed woods for my International clients. Today I got some very lovely European curly maple that I will be sending off for acrylic impregnation.

I hope to write up a note describing what is required for CITES for US makers, and all the procedures involved sometime soon.

Casey

Am losing a little sleep over this (its 3:30AM here).

Even though I have the require export documentation from both the USFWS and USDA, my clients in most countries are also required to apply for and obtain CITES importation permits from their authorities. I just sent out two notices to two waiting clients in Ireland and they took the news well, and are on it so they can get their flutes as soon as possible.

Fortunately the Irish authorities were direct and prompt in replying in terms of where to obtain a permit, and offered to help my clients with the process. I have inquiries out to apan and Canada where I frequently send flutes to - and will be contacting the EU member countries as well as the UK (currently a member until Brexit). From what I see there is no standard form in use across the EU - every country has its own.

But the bottom line is that us makers are required to have two different permits to export, and all of our clients have to obtain an importation permit as well for any transaction involving a CITES ii protected species such as Blackwood, any other Rosewood (Cocobolo, Kingwood, Tulipwood etc.) and Bubinga and other species (Lignum Vitae, etc.)

Casey

I guess the upside is that it will create a more serious search for other woods suitable for flute making, such as the Maple you are going to experiment with. Who knows it may even turn up better woods than we are now used to.

It also makes boxwood look like a very good option!

I'm not so sure. Yesterday Fender Guitars just announced that they are no longer using Rosewood for guitar neck fingerboards, and instead will start using Pau Ferro. This wood is used by some wind instrument makers and I have used it. Its a good wood. However, with a giant like Fender coming along expect all of the Pau Ferro to be tied up.

Fruitwoods and Maple and other lighter woods densified by Acrylic might be a good possibility. But even the local Big Leaf Maples here are under attack. Even up my little street where some meth-head illegally logged 3 or 4 large trees on some acreage, taking only what he could sell to China and leaving the rest behind for someone else to clean up (or left rotting in the woods). Wood was stolen from other private and public properties, including some local parks. They cut the tree down, take the trunk - but only if it appears to be quilted or fiddle backed. Its now required to have a permit to cut and transport such wood - though I doubt if that is enforced.

Mountain Mahogany harvesting is no longer allowed on public lands and that resource seems somewhat finite. I just gave away a huge pile of old firewood that was slightly too big for my woodstove. Buried behind it was a bunch of turning woods that haven't seen the light of day for a long time. In the pile were a couple of logs of Mountain Mahogany that are now well cured and perfect. Am saving these for some special projects for myself.

Casey

Am finding that not all countries require the import permits.

Most of the EU countries do, including Ireland.

But not Japan, and possibly not Australia (am seeking verification). I have inquiries out to Canada and New Zealand.

Best to check with your local CITES authorities. You can reach these by Googling "CITES Import Permit <name of the country>"

Casey

For Appendix II woods, Canada requires export permits only, no import permits, for incoming or outgoing shipments.