Great grandad's Rudall carte flute and piccolo

[pinbat]

I have these old instruments which were my great grandfather's, I'd love to learn a bit more about them if anyone could help.

The piccolo is marked Rudall Carte, with the Berner's St address and the serial is 4491. The body is some kind of wood with a metal interior and I don't know what metal the mechanism/keys are.

The flute is newer, I think, from the receipts a 1944/45 New Metal 1867. The serial is 7725, also marked with the Berner's Street address.

I can play a modern flute but don't know anything about these older ones! I'd quite like to clean them up and get them back into working condition and hopefully learn to wield them a bit.

Pictures hopefully follow...

[jemtheflute]

Is the flute stamped as being "1867 Patent"? It looks to me as though it has a closed G# key, which would make it more likely a "Guards Model" example. The piccolo is open G# and apparently standard 1867 system. I would assume its metal parts are sterling silver from their style and colour. I'm away from home so can't look up serial numbers for you in Robert Bigio's book about the firm. If you apply to him via his website (just Google his name) he will usually look flutes up in the record books (he holds copies thereof) in return for a small donation to charity.

Can you measure and tell us the "sounding lengths" of the two instruments? That is, on the fully assembled flutes, all parts pushed fully together, from the open, foot end to the centre of the embouchure (blow) hole - in millimetres. That information will tell us what pitch standard they were built for, which will in turn give an idea of their potential value and how worthwhile it would be to spend money on refurbishment.

If they are not leaking or significantly out of regulation, and you can actually play them as-is, there are 1867 system fingering charts in my online resources on Box-net - accessible via my "signature" or via the Fingering Chart Sticky Thread at the head of this Forum.

[pinbat]

Thank you Jem for this reply! I measured them and the flute is 597mm and the piccolo 255mm from centre embouchure to end.

The flute isn't stamped with 1867 Patent - it's just the receipt refers to it as "New Metal 1867 Flute". I must admit I don't know anything about flute mechanisms/systems themselves, but braved a go on them and found that in both cases the G and G# are the other way around to what I'm used to on my modern flute, and I have to hold down the G(#) lever to hold the notes below it - so would that make them open G#? The G# lever on this Rudall flute pulls down the next key along as compared to my modern flute that opens a key on the inside aspect.

The piccolo seems to seal OK but on the flute I found I had to press the keys rather more firmly than I'm used to for some notes! Might there be any way to improve the pads or is this a feature of the older pad material? (I've never played anything but a modern flute!)

Thanks for pointing me to the chart links too, that's very useful.

[jemtheflute]

OK, those sounding lengths are both good for modern Concert Pitch, A=440Hz, with maybe a couple of mm slide opening. That is good news.

Yes, the 1867 is sort-of open G# - in that as you say fingering xxx ooo, gets you G# and fingering xxx' ooo, gets you G natural. However, unlike an open G# Böhm system flute, as you go further down the scale, if you use the F# touch for R1 it also holds the L4 G key closed and you don't have to keep your L4 finger on it, whereas if you use the R1 F natural touch it doesn't act on the G key and you must keep L4 holding it closed......

Regarding how fit they are to play, you should not need to squeeze the keys if all is well with pads and regulation. However, on long disused flutes the pads can have rather dried out and they may improve with playing. Breathing through the flute with all keys closed for a few minutes before trying to play can help a lot. However, if pads are damaged or need re-seating, or if the regulation is out (missing buffer corks, bent or worn clutches or keys.....) then overhaul is definitely needed. If the pad skins are sound, it may be that having them cleaned and adjusted and the regulation checked might be all that is needed.

Whereabouts are you?

[pinbat]

Oh, that is good news about being concert pitch! Thank you again for all this information! I'll try breathing some life into the pads then, they look a bit wrinkly rather than cracked if you see what I mean.

I'm in London (north), maybe it's worth getting them minimally serviced (mechanics oiled?) so I don't risk damaging them by use if something's slightly askew? I'm not hugely bothered if I can't get them in perfect working order but it would be nice to at least not make it worse!

[jemtheflute]

Sounds like a plan. As you're in N London I strongly recommend you contact Robert Bigio (http://www.bigio.com/contact.htm) - you're more-or-less neighbours. He may well be interested to see the flutes and can tell you more about them. He probably won't want to work on them himself, but he can advise better if he can inspect and may have suggestions of suitable technicians.

[jemtheflute]

I'm back home now and have access to my copy of Robert Bigio's book to look up the serial numbers.

Flute #7725 was made (or finished) in 1935.

Piccolo #4491 was made in 1908.

That's all I can tell you. Application to Robert would get you the full workshop records entries.

[pinbat]

Thanks again Jem, it's lovely to know the dates, very kind of you to remember and look them up for me I'm now making contact with Robert as you suggested.

[radcliff]

By the way, those looks to be both good quality instruments. I wish my grandpa was such a good player!
Compliments!