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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:40 am 
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$5K now! :boggle:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:23 am 
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csoroz wrote:
$5K now! :boggle:
And now the bidding increment is $500.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:41 pm 
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I decided to take a look again tonight at that fine boxwood flute that wants to be a Rudall & Rose, i was checking the size of the large toneholes which i like very much on a flute-- and on doing this i noticed another problem the maker had with forgetfulness, when the R & R Co introduced quatrefoils in there stamping the quatrefoil always appeared above and below each stamping, on this flute it does appear above and below the address on the main body-- but take a look at the lower body and foot joint and short barrel ? the quatrefoil is just stamped below Rudall & Rose, London, when it should be stamped above and below. The flute looks great and i like everything about it--i would love to find out how it sounds and plays.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:38 am 
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JMackvane has noticed another stamp discrepancy. I noticed that the flute has "modern" pads which together with the corked tenons indicates that it has been played within the last few decades. I don't like the banana warp though. I agree that it could be a good player even it if isn't a R&R flute. $5000 plus 20% is way to much to spend on this flute even if it is a bona fide R&R which I still doubt. I have contacted the foremost Rudall expert who is of the opinion that it is a genuine Rudall because of the workmanship.

Just my opinion, but I don't think it is a R&R because of the dodgy stamps no "Covent Garden", only one quatrefoil instead of two on three of the stamps, the way the head joint seems to taper towards the ring at the barrel end, the distance between the embouchure hole and the top of the head joint. I think this is a replica, possibly a modern replica, by a flute maker using keys from a genuine R&R or contemporary flute. The box is genuine. I don't believe the auction house's "only driven to church on Sundays by an old lady" story either.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:04 am 
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Hello, I add the link to the extra pictures from the seller:
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/6c103e70c8870cb45d6d58ee9643cf7320170407143251/7f770d1dee7961b9beedab5d3da8501e20170407143251/1a3780

I can think about one or maybe two modern makers who can make a proper rudall copy.
The price for such work would be about that amount.

About the stamp: Would that be the first or second flute with quatrefoil stamped?
Maybe there was no "standard" yet...
I guess that quatrefoils were stamped in a another moment from the rest of the marks.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:12 am 
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I also notice that the stamping is very fresh and preserved looking on every joint, i have a boxwood flute from close to the same period and the stamps are well worn and certainly suit the age of the flute---especially around the areas which would be held when putting the flute together or taking it apart, well maybe this flute was not played much---although with the condition of the end cap stopper tells one that it was well used---and i am surprised that the owner didn't get the stopper repaired or replaced---its a simple job for a wood turner, Also a question a buyer should have is ---does the head joint and barrel joint move or come apart and hope its not seized---or whether its a patent head or not with the silver cover missing, if its a patent head it maybe a reason for not getting it replaced, although i believe it would be easy enough to get a silver cover in the UK if one knows where, Patsy Moloney has a silver patent cover on his R & R flute even though it is just a regular head joint.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:37 am 
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I've also wondered about the freshness/crispness of the stamps. There is no discernable wear on the stamps that I can see in spite of the fact that the flute has obviously been used to the extent that it has had at least one repad and has had the tenons corked.

I saw the Cotter keyless flute that is for sale and noticed that the stamp was in the same style as seen on R&R flutes with curved and straight lettering. The same with my Wilkes flute. So I suppose it wouldn't be difficult to have a stamp made up, or to assemble the individual lettering needed.

Here in Sweden there is an English eight key cocuswood flute with silver keys without any stamps at all? The owner is convinced it is a R&R. It is a very good flute. Perhaps it was made by an employee of Rudall & Rose who made it on the side, could get hold of keys and rings, but lacked access to the stamps, which I assume wouldn't have been left just lying around on a work bench as the company would want to make it as difficult as possible for fakers. This was also a reason for the authencity certificates in the lids of their flute cases as of course, even then, stamps could be faked. This is why I think it is so strange that R&R 3260 instead of having no stamps at all, or having the correct stamps, has instead odd, or incorrect stamps that don't see to have appeared on any other R&R so far.

We know that R&R flutes have a wide variety of options as regards numbers of keys, key styles, type of rings, head joints woods etc. We know that the addresses on the stamps don't always coincide with the serial numbers as it seems the flute was given a serial number first when it was sold, not when it was completed. But as far as I know the stamps were always uniform in that the different addresses were spelt correctly and were complete even if they, and the serial numbers, were sometimes sloppily applied.

Just my speculations. I sense something odd about "R&R" 3260, but at the end of the day it's up to the buyer to decide. I've asked the foremost expert, Mr. B. and he believes it to be genuine.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Currently at $6000, with just over two days to go. Could this flute end up setting a new price record?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:08 am 
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Sold: $5500 + fees (!)
(while that gold commode went for $2500 for what is Worth)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:42 pm 
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It wasn't a great fishing day for the Co---they had it at $6000 but nobody was taking the bait and of course they then had to claim a withdrawn bid, i believe they were fishing from the very beginning some weeks ago, all they needed was a couple of bidders to play with, there are quite a number of auction companies that carryout this type of behavior but not all-- as there are also some very honest auction companies out there


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:27 pm 
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JMackvane, off-topic, but you mentioned an 11 key flute in your possession, #2896. Would you mind telling me what configuration those 11 keys are in? In particular, to what note does the foot descend? Thanks.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:01 pm 
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Hi Jem.
That flute is not in my possession or never was, it belonged to a friend of mine, i am an 8 keyed flute player and would never have any interest in anymore keys, as far as i remember that 11 keyed flute of which i kept the serial # as i thought it was an odd flute for a R & R, i don't think they made many of those, it went down to A and also had a trill key above the high C key. I will try to put a couple of photos of my 8 keyed Boxwood Rudall on here soon, it was a special order flute back then, I mentioned to Terry McGee at onetime that this flute has a rubberized type of membrane between the metal liner and the wood in the head joint and the short barrel, i will give you more details when i get time to take photos etc, very busy at this time of year---I'm a Carpenter Contractor.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:08 pm 
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OK, thanks and understood. 11 keys including the normal 8 and with a high E trill couldn't get you down to A and SFAIK or is known, they never made an A foot. Bb is possible with 11 including a high trill, or it could just go to B if there's another extra key up-tube somewhere, such as a R1 Bb touch. I'm trying to compile a list of the definitely know extant Bb foot examples. This is one is a candidate but needs clarification/confirmation. If when you've a chance you could find out from the owner....... :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Jem its a long time ago around 1978--79, i do know it had a high key--maybe the other was a touch for the Bb, i'm getting it mixed up in my mind with a Monzani flute. the person who owned that flute has sold it a long time ago.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Ah, fair enough. Thanks for the info anyway.

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