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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:09 am 
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Thanks for the serial numbers JMackvane. 721, 2976, 3498, 3743 are already in the register. I'll include the other serial numbers in the register today. Yes, I compared how the pewter key touches are attached to the keys on "R&R 3260", to those on my later flute R&R 4871. There is definitely a difference. On 4871 the key shafts are much finer engineered and under each end of the C# and C key shaft where the touch goes in the is no groove in the word of the foot joint, instead a round piece of cork is inset to protect the wood. Also the strike plates on all three of the pewter keys, including the placement of the four screws holding each plate to the foot joint are much better finished and neater than those on "R&R 3260".


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:22 am 
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Jon-- give us your idea about the placement of the embouchure hole, and the stopper or cap on the head-joint, also the address on the body of the flute, ?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:41 am 
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Jon C. thinks R&R 3260 is a genuine Rudall. It is possible, although the observations of JMackvane regarding the pewter key shafts & touches, the missing "Covent Garden", lack of cork dot silencers, quality of strike plate details, all the wording in the main stamp been curved, the long head joint, are all discrepancies that make me wonder? The boxwood Rudalls were the budget flutes we are told, perhaps this flute had silver ware from a different supplier and not from the usual supplier of outsourced materials? If it is a fake Rudall, then it is looks to be very well made as people have pointed out. I wouldn't know wherever to bid or not. If I did bid 1200 Swedish crowns that's $1366, then the 24% extra, nudging $1700. On top of that postage and possible import duties when it come to Europe. If it is a fake from the 1800's, is there a genuine R&R out there with the serial number 3260? Is it in Migoya's secret register?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:00 am 
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I've just taken a closer look at the foot keys in the photos. I see no problem whatever with the way the pewter plugs are fitted - it's just that the rivet tops above the silver rings of the key arms are a bit battered. The arms otherwise look pretty normal, as do the connections to the touch levers at the "grasshopper's knee" articulations. The rectangular cavities for cork buffers in the body where they land when at rest are pretty usual - just need cork in 'em! The only possible slight anomaly is that the edges of the strike plates do not appear to be chamfered. We cannot see in any of the photos whether there are cork buffer studs in the body for the three short keys, Bb, G# and short F, which are the norm. The main mounting block on the foot appears to have a steel reinforcing pin in its base on the Eb key side. I can't see any other blocks with this, a typical R&R feature, but the photos do not give all necessary views and R&R were not consistent in their use of the pins.

I also note that the "15 Piazza" line of the address stamp is not in fact curved, but straight as normal. The "Covent Garden" line is missing, but that could simply be the stamp-striker's accidental omission. We know the stamping at R&R could be somewhat haphazard. I think this a likelier explanation than that the flute is a counterfeit.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:47 pm 
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JMackvane wrote:
Jon-- give us your idea about the placement of the embouchure hole, and the stopper or cap on the head-joint, also the address on the body of the flute, ?

The stopper is not original, the head joint embouchure location just looks strange because they have a extra long distance from emb to crown, not unusual. The stamp with quadrafoil is authentic. I don't see what the problem it... the Eb pewter is the same time period as the flute middle to late 1830's. As far as I am concerned it is authentic and worth about $3-4K. Maybe Icshould buy a lottery ticket... :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:17 pm 
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Jon, if you can show me a Rudall & Rose 8 keyed flute other than the flute in question,with the address Rudall & Rose, 15 Piazza, London. without the inclusion of Covent Garden, then i will agree with your idea that its genuine,
The flute can be what you want it to be in your mind, you probably know quite a lot about flutes from getting all types of flutes through your shop over the years, an yes there were flute makers back then just as good or some even better than Rudall, i would bring to mind here Butler and of course Wylde who worked for Rudall & Rose, but it seems that a lot of players back then wanted the R & R flutes---so they were the flutes to copy---thats where the money was, Tell me
why R & R put a label in their flute cases and singed their names on there? Like i said previously this flute in question is a very well made flute and the maker could do as good a job as R & R but the money was in the name and to avoid litigation they new what to do to leave out a word here or there in the stamp. I say the flute is well worth bidding on, but by no means as an investment. I can show you a boxwood R & R made around the very same time with its address Rudall & Rose, 15 Piazza, Covent Garden, London.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:15 pm 
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I am not an expert but my thinking is that people that counterfeit things for a living are not stupid or unskilled, just dishonest.

If it was left off I would assume that it was accidental at the point of manufacture. If all the other original flutes had Covent Garden on the flute a person making a counterfeit would have included that. I don't think was a clue left by the person doing the work as a nod to those in the know.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:29 pm 
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One useful thing here would be to compile some similarly scaled images of good photos of R&R stamps with curved elements and quatrefoils from 15 Piazza and to make some careful comparisons of the curves, the quatrefoils and the type-faces and sizes of the letters and numbers. If the match is good, it would support the contention that the missing "Covent Garden" line was just an accidental omission. If the match is bad, well, that'll speak for itself.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Jem. when the Rudall & Rose Co finished making a flute it wasn't just put in a case and shipped out, there was quite a few flute makers in that company as you know and when a flute was finished it then went through three and maybe even four pairs of hands before it got the ok. tested for sound and tuning--for key operation--- and last the quality of workmanship, yes the flute was well looked at before giving the ok----so you think they overlooked the mistake on the address----lets give these people credit for operating a very good company.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:57 pm 
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I assume that those in the "counterfeit" camp aren't attributing the missing part of the address to incompetence on the counterfeiters' part, but rather deliberate avoidance of copyright infringement. It's the same reason you find "Rolax" watches and "Lois Vitten" handbags; they're hoping those few little changes are enough to avoid legal hassle.

I'm inclined to agree with that idea, since it would be hard to believe Rudall & Rose themselves would make that mistake. But if there are other R&R flutes out there without "Covent Garden," that might lend credence to this being legit.

All in all, it's making me very curious indeed about this flute...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:01 am 
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I am of course not certain that this flute is genuine and would happily accept clearer evidence either way, but thus far I still consider it more likely genuine than that it is counterfeit. I certainly think it is possible a line of stamping got accidentally omitted and yes, I do think that is possible despite whatever quality control methods R&R applied. As I keep saying and constantly observe, they were very lackadaisical about the stamping with wonky lines, overlaps, double strikes/stutters........ It regularly surprises me that they were so sloppy with this aspect of finishing.

I'm not for now in a position to collect and manipulate photos of stamps to make comparisons. Perhaps someone with access to several 15 Piazza flutes, pre and post quatrefoil, all straight line or with curved lines for "Rudall and Rose" and "London" could oblige?

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Last edited by jemtheflute on Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:51 am 
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This flute has become, or is, somewhat of a conundrum. Whoever buys it will always have to explain the missing "Covent Garden" from the stamp. People will always doubt the authencity of the flute if it is advertised for sale, or turns up at another auction as a R&R, when they notice part of the address is missing. I agree with JMackvane as I very much doubt Rudall & Rose would make such a mistake as omitting part of the address. Again it could be a very good player, there is value in that, someone has gone to the trouble of having the tenons corked

I wonder if this is a frankenflute? It's possible that the first joint was damaged, missing, or badly warped, and some flute maker has made a a new first joint, moved over the original keys and stamped the flute, attempting to make it seem like the original joint to preserve the value of the flute, but missed off part of the address by mistake? R&R usually have threaded tenons. 3260 is corked which would indicate that it has been looked at at some point. Just speculation I know.

Regarding Jem's thoughts on stamps, the lettering, font size, style, and shape of curve:

R&R 3036 cocuswood, has no quatrefoils, has straight lettering on the main stamp and other stamps here at Shorey's site: http://www.antiqueflutes.com/web%20phot ... 932.03.jpg

R&R 3203 boxwood, has no quatrefoils, straight lettering on the main stamp and other stamps. "No 15 Piazza Covent Garden" is in a smaller font than "Rudall & Rose" and "London", claw C# & C touches

R&R 3230 cocuswood, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, claw C# & C touches

R&R 3246 cocuswood, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, claw C# & C touches

R&R 3251 cocuswood, has no quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, claw C# & C touches

R&R 3312 cocuswood, nine key, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, pewter Eb key, claw C# & C touches

R&R 3634 cocuswood, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, salt spoon Eb key, claw C# & C touches

R&R 3680 boxwood, patent head, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, salt spoon Eb key, claw C# & C touches

R&R 3695 cocuswood, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, salt spoon Eb key, claw C# & C touches

R&R 4275 cocuswood, has quatrefoils, curved "Rudall & Rose" and "London" on all stamps, claw C# & C touches

My earliest R&R is number 4871. It is cocuswood, has quatrefoils, and the font size is smaller. "Rudall & Rose" and "London" are curved. claw C# & C touches


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:46 am 
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One hypothesis could be that this flute bypassed the Rudall & Rose quality control department and left the premises under more mysterious circumstances. As Terry McGee points out on his website, three trials at the Old Baily occurred in which employees of the firm in question were charged and found guilty of the theft of flute parts.

The stamping could have been done with one eye on the door. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Uni Flute wrote:
One hypothesis could be that this flute bypassed the Rudall & Rose quality control department and left the premises under more mysterious circumstances. As Terry McGee points out on his website, three trials at the Old Baily occurred in which employees of the firm in question were charged and found guilty of the theft of flute parts.

The stamping could have been done with one eye on the door. :)

I wonder if it was still being made in house, or was it made in Henry Wylde's shop? Does anyone know when they stopped making them in house?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:28 am 
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Mid 1830s - pretty much peak years for simple system. SFAIK definitely in-house production, well before modern system developments took over the output.

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