Slurring notes vs Playing Legato

[bradhurley]

Here's another illustration of this, from Catherine McEvoy, during a workshop she gave in New York City in the 1990s:

http://www.firescribble.net/mountaintopglottal.mp3

She plays a phrase from the reel "The Mountain Top" with and without glottal stops (which she calls "gutteral stops") so you can hear the difference the stop makes.

[Nanohedron]

I knew a fellow who objected to the term "glottal stop"; he thought it was too classical-sounding for proper trad lingo, so he was much happier when I obliged by calling it "throating" instead. You just can't win. Odd thing is, he was never a flute player, so one wonders why it should even matter to him.

[jim stone]

Thanks to all. A most helpful thread.

[m_abukhalid]

Thank you for weighing in Brad and that recording is great as well! I guess it figures that there would not be 1 single way of doing anything in ITM!

[bradhurley]

One of the revelations to me in learning how to use these stops (glottal, gutteral, throating, whatever you want to call it) is that they can and usually do occur at both the beginning and the end of a note. The mind-set I've adopted is that the default position of my windpipe is closed, and I'm letting little bursts of air out and then cutting them off again. It's very similar to tight piping in that regard: the chanter is closed and you let individual notes pop out.

You can hear this pretty clearly in Catherine McEvoy's demonstration that I posted above, which she did at the urging of the late Bill Ochs, who organized this workshop in New York City around 1995 or so. Bill heard the stops in her playing and asked her to demonstrate how she did it; he rightly observed that this was a key contributor to the lift in Catherine's playing.

[chas]

One of the revelations to me in learning how to use these stops (glottal, gutteral, throating, whatever you want to call it) is that they can and usually do occur at both the beginning and the end of a note.

You can include tonguing in that list, too, however averse many Irish players are to it. Chris Norman pointed out to me that tonguing (or glottals, tongue-wagging, and everything in between) can clip one note at the end and/or another at the beginning, and is quite effective at both. I agree that it's a whole new way of looking at mouth articulation.

Quantz has a section on articulation, which is fascinating. Even way back when, they thought about it a lot, and there are so many different degrees of it, from totally legato to the most forward tongue or hardest glottal.

[Nanohedron]

I've used the glottis plenty to clip notes off, myself; makes it nice and crisp every time. Come to think of it, I've used the tongue, too. Never thought of it as "tonguing" before this conversation, but obviously that's what it is.

The usual furor over tonguing has always seemed to me to be about how one initiates notes - and that's where my mind was stuck.

[jim stone]

Will someone say what 'clipping' notes is? Thanks

[Nanohedron]

Will someone say what 'clipping' notes is? Thanks

I'm talking about ending the note abruptly, clipping it off clean; in a fluter's case, stopping it with the tongue or glottis. It's an effect. I never had a word for it until now; I'm assuming that Brad and Charlie are talking about the same thing. OTOH, I could be seeing only the narrow vista from under my rock. They will have to tell us.

As may be guessed, there is nothing even remotely legato about clipping. The way way I learned it was from others' playing (not just fluters!), the standard device being to follow the clipped quarter note with a pause to fit the meter. It may be imposed upon the tune as a variation, or already be practically built into it, depending on the composition. Clipping followed by the pause makes the note more rhythmically emphatic because it is made to stand out sharply among the rest; the effect is like an interjection or an exclamation point, and as such it is IMO best used judiciously. After all, a tune played all a-prickle with those babies could be enjoyably novel in the right hands, but that mastermind isn't going to be me. Not sure if this application necessarily coincides with whatever uses Brad or Charlie had in mind - there must be other possibilities - but it's certainly in the trad arsenal, and I've found it both useful and fun.

If you've done a lot of listening to a lot of individual styles, I would confidently lay odds you've heard this rhythmic device before, even if only once. Fiddlers do it. Box players do it. Uilleann pipers do it. Whistlers do it. And fluteplayers, too. It may not have registered, but as we all know, this music can be awfully mesmerizing.

The reel Rutherglen Road especially sticks out for me. The first downbeat in its A section is definitely one such place I'd do it, although of course not every time. It gives a lot of lift starting out the tune that way, though - and questionable habits like that are the black mark you get for stealing tricks off of Scottish box players. If you're reading this, you know who you are.

I can't come up with more familiar examples at the moment because that reel is hogging center stage in my head now, so maybe this bare-bones dydle-ee-dye of it will help:

HUP diddle-deedle-dydle diddy-iddy-um-a-diddle...

There it is, on the "HUP". But you don't get the "HUP" effect without clipping the note.

[benhall.1]

The reel Rutherglen Road especially sticks out for me.

Dammit! I can't find it. I hate not finding things.

The thing is, I know I've asked you this before, so if you can answer, I'll save the thing this time! Do you have a link to the reel Rutherglen Road? Or dots, or something? Youtube?

[Sorry for the thread diversion, but one needs to know these things!]

[kenny]

"Rutherglen Road" - if I remember correctly was composed by a flute-player, Kevin O'Neill from Glasgow. I'm sure I have the dots somewhere.

[benhall.1]

"Rutherglen Road" - if I remember correctly was composed by a flute-player, Kevin O'Neill from Glasgow. I'm sure I have the dots somewhere.

That'd be brilliant if you have them Kenny.

[Nanohedron]

"Rutherglen Road" - if I remember correctly was composed by a flute-player, Kevin O'Neill from Glasgow.

That's right. For some reason it's practically impossible to find this tune on the Web, which I think is odd, but I guess you can't have everything. I learned it from the aforementioned box player. I know it has been recorded in a studio at least once because after I learned it I also heard it on a CD, but I'm afraid I don't remember the name of the band. The melody sounds almost dauntingly ornate, but actually it's ridiculously flute-friendly when you try it out. I like the tune quite a bit.

People typically wonder if I really mean Adam Sutherland's reel in A minor called Kevin O'Neill of Rutherglen, but rest assured it is NOT the same tune. Not even close. Rutherglen Road is of an entirely different character, and it was composed by Kevin in Dmaj.

[Sorry for the thread diversion, but one needs to know these things!]

I fear that horse has already long fled the barn - but it may be corralled yet.

[Nanohedron]

Okay, I finally found a smartphone vid of The Treacherous Orchestra performing a souped-up version of Rutherglen Road, but the quality is crap and you can't hear anything substantive about the tune because of audience noise, so I don't see the point in wasting everybody's time with it. If you insist, I'll post it, but as I said, there's really no point.

Can't even find the dots.

[benhall.1]

Okay, I finally found a smartphone vid of The Treacherous Orchestra performing a souped-up version of Rutherglen Road, but the quality is crap and you can't hear anything substantive about the tune because of audience noise, so I don't see the point in wasting everybody's time with it. If you insist, I'll post it, but as I said, there's really no point.

Can't even find the dots.

Dammit! Now I have to have it. Ah, post the thing. Maybe we'll get the gist.