Top up breathing

[rykirk]

Rykirk, (in lay terms) you cannot inhale more than you exhale .

Precisely my point and precisely the problem at hand. One CAN inhale more than they exhale for a short time on a breath to breath basis, especially if they are inexperienced or don't have good breathing technique or patterns. Simple example: Joe is a relatively new flute player with little conscious breathing experience from sport or music. Joe breaths in what he feels is a deep breath but probably only hits 60% of his lung capacity. He then blows out half of that before feeling he needs to "top-up" due to physical discomfort or musical phrasing. He tops up with a quick breath adding another 40%. He's now at 70% of his total lung capacity. Repeat and you hit 80%, repeat and you hit 90%. His physical discomfort rises as he goes on and his musical phrases get shorter and tenser as he goes.

So no, you can't inhale more than you exhale indefinitely or even for very long, but you can in the short term and it can be a problem for novice wind players or even singers who have the least resistance of all. That's why I'm hesitant to ever recommend or use the term 'topping up'. Much better to get into the habit of properly relaxing and letting old air out when you have the chance. I suspect many folk flautists who claim they don't exhale actually do as a subtle relaxation of the windway and jaw and don't realize it or think of it in those terms.

Maybe I'm being too literal about 'topping up' or you guys are reading 'exhale' in too literal or dramatic a way. But it is a real problem. Just because you may not have experienced doesn't mean it doesn't happen to new players.

As a final point I think it's quite revealing that most published or taught long tone exercises and warmups involve a deliberate and conscious exhale or clearing of the lungs before the next tone. I've not yet seen it recommended to practice long tones for any instrument thru 'topping up'.

[david_h]

... the forum isn't letting me post a link right now but just Google 'wind players stale air exhale' and many articles and online discussions will come up. You'll probably find mostly double reeds like oboe and brass discussed as the back pressure exacerbates the problem.

Not mainly reeds and brass all reeds and brass. So I tried 'flute players stale air exhale'. Google's excerpt of the second hit starts "On the oboe, it is essential that stale air be exhaled, which flutists will never be concerned with due to using their air. "

It's not an issue. Relaxed breaths before a long tone are to ensure blood O2 and CO2 are OK before we start - we may have just done a long tone. Long tones are an exercise for breath and embouchure control including keeping control right to the end of a breath. Want to lose air on the flute? Just carry on playing, stopping the flow for gap between notes if required.

[Loren]

Hell I've even seen a soprano top-up breath herself into passing out during a recital.

More nonsense.

So you’re a medical professional and used pulse oximetry and drew blood on the spot for blood gas analysis? You took the patient’s in-depth medical history? You were able to rule out heart conditions, Diabetes, the effects of medications that can impact blood pressure? You were able to rule out an ear infection and other conditions affecting the inner ear? When did the patient last eat? What did they eat? How much did the eat? Fluid intake?

There are a great many things that can cause loss of consciousness and you’d have no way of knowing the cause. You might think the reason is obvious, however no competent medical professional would make such assumptions.

As a trained EMT and someone with more than one singer in my family, one of whom is also a professional music and singing teacher, the idea that a singer managed to hyperventilate herself into unconsciousness seems….highly unlikely at best. Certainly I’d keep an open mind while assessing her but experience tells me the odds are FAR more likely that your singer suffered a sudden drop in blood pressure, not over or under oxygenation. That’s assuming what you’re describing is accurate.

[rykirk]

Relaxed breaths before a long tone are to ensure blood O2 and CO2 are OK before we start - we may have just done a long tone. Long tones are an exercise for breath and embouchure control including keeping control right to the end of a breath.

Okay, and what is the material difference between having just played a previous long tone vs having just played a long passage of music? And why do we train maintaining control right to the end of the breath if we only intend to 'top-up' and not use a full inhale and exhale cycle?

In any case we'll have to agree to disagree. I whole heartedly recommend everyone experiment with different methods and breath in a way that is comfortable and works musically for whatever they play. I'll keep using the style I learned and you can keep using yours. I'm not trying to convince everyone to switch, just raising a possible concern the OP may have faced. There's more than one way to skin a cat, clearly.

[GreenWood]

Relaxed breaths....

Okay, and what is the material difference between having just played a previous long tone vs having just played a long passage of...

Rykirk, I don't think there is any disagreement there. Long tone is same as long passage and david_h didn't suggest differently.

I am only able to speak from own experience, but often a tune will start on near full, and small topping up will be done where there is opportunity, and then usually there will be a slightly larger pause after say four bars, or sometimes eight even. By then you might be near using up all your air, even after topping up, so the practice of long tone (which I have never done but sounds sensible) will be to familiarise the player on how to handle the playing as they reach the end of that passage.

It is possible to dump air while playing, but as far as I know it never occurs in any empty space left for breathing in, because those spaces are short and you need to use it all to breathe in as much as possible.

Someone would have to calculate if 50-100-50-100-50-100 full is much different from 25-75-25-75-25-75 full ... with the latter of those on each breath you are introducing twice the amount of fresh air to used, versus an equal amount on the first...these are all details that, as you say, any individual has to find their way around in a way that suits. Just that last example though does show that a clear guide is not easy (because for example equally at the end of the 50-100 it goes to -25 because of a long passage, and the 25-75 would not have time to take in up to 100 beforehand )... and I have absolutely no idea what flute teachers recommend.

OP was wondering if air was dumped before a breath, and though he doesn't say it that maybe implies that he was not comfortable just topping up...but his reason for asking is best left for him to explain... he might just be looking for advice or ideas or wanting to be certain his method is acceptable.