Somers flute blows flat

[AngelicBeaver]

I acquired a Delrin keyless D flute by Gary Somers a few months ago, and I enjoy it, but it plays flat compared to my other flutes.
I have to push the tuning slide all the way in to play on pitch (and/or use an app to adjust the pitch to match).

It looks like Gary Somers isn't making flutes anymore, or I'd reach out to him. I've seen some people state that individuals can be "flat players", but I'm not sure how those mechanics work. My Solen Le Souef works fine with the slide pulled out a bit, as does my Carbony.

Are there some flutes built for "sharp players"? Can a flute be adjusted by a repair person to play sharper?

[Terry McGee]

I think it's more the case that there are flutes built by sharp players, and Gary probably was one, and so wouldn't have had difficulty getting it up to pitch with a few mm spare on the tuning slide. I used to be there myself, having been "forced sharp" by a Boehm flute teacher and a Boehm flute made before Albert Cooper brought sense to that world. So my earliest flutes tended to be a bit lacking in tuning range too. Bit by bit, having ditched the metal flute, I regained my natural embouchure, which was much flatter. And then researched the 19th century blowing and holding approach, adopted that, went flatter again. And then finally did the collaboration with Grey Larsen, who is the flattest player I've encountered, but also one of the most powerful. He asked me to make flutes I send to him even sharper!

Sharpening a flute essentially requires cutting some length off from either the far end of the head, or from the barrel, as well as from the tuning slide. That is a bit tricky if the flute has the tuning slide embodied within the delrin, rather than removable, as is the case with my "New Improved Tuning Slides". When you look into the embouchure hole, do you see metal or delrin? If metal, we can probably assume the slide is fairly firmly embedded. You don't want them coming loose and turning to block the embouchure hole!

Does the barrel have the typical protrusion of female tuning slide on the head end? The reason I ask is that there has to be made a cavity in the end of the head to accept this protrusion - you can see the cavity if you pull the head off and look to where its protruding slide emanates. So, not only do you have to cut a bit off the male slide, and shorten the end of the head, you have to then deepen that cavity. Not so easy with a tuning slide sticking through it! Some makers didn't do the protruding barrel slide approach, if that was Gary's approach, at least that's one less thing needing attention.

And, wherever you need to cut head or barrel, there's usually a ring that needs to come off and go back on!

Now, don't let me scare you that this is all impossible, because it's not. Answer my questions above (bolded for your convenience!) and we can think further. Or direct us to an image of the head and barrel if you think that's necessary.

Hmmm, so Gary isn't making any more. Is it possible that he's found the answer to the question "Is there life after flute making?" I'm coming up to my 76th birthday, and still looking....

[AngelicBeaver]

I tried to get some photos. Hopefully, you can access them with the link:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/m8GZwq6pSoVU57bx7

The head isn't lined. Looks like there's an inner copper tube inserted into the head, and then a removable chrome sleeve over that that also goes into the head.

[kkrell]

Nathaniel,

How is the flute marked? Is it a Pratten model? Mine is his Rudall version & is stamped:

G. SOMERS
RANCHO Q
S.C.
RM

The slide section in the head is copper-colored, and juts out of the head 44mm. The one from the Barrel is the same interior, but silvered outside. and protrudes 21mm. Elongated oval (football-shaped) embouchure. Your pictures don't really show the relationship of head, slide & barrel.

[AngelicBeaver]

I added a couple of extra photos to the album. My flute says
"G. Somers
P"

I'm assuming that means it's the Pratten model.

[Terry McGee]

Oooh, interesting, so glad I asked! Is it possible that the silvered tube belongs pressed into a cavity in the barrel, rather than floating free like that? And that's stopping the male slide going right home? Did the slide perhaps get temporarily "glued" to the male slide from the head by breath condensate? And then pulling the head off the barrel pulled the silvery tube out of the barrel cavity?

If that seems likely, can you try pressing the silvery tube back into the barrel cavity? But only after carefully cleaning any grunge from its insides, and from the outside of the male (head section) slide, using a rag soaked in alcohol. Grease after with cork grease or other suitable lubricant.

Hmmm, I haven't had any experience using copper as the mating surfaces in flute tuning slides, but I wonder if it has a tendency to fret or form salts from the moisture etc in our breaths? Are those spots of green verdigris? (Verdigris: "a bright bluish-green encrustation or patina formed on copper or brass by atmospheric oxidation, consisting of basic copper carbonate".) If so, polish those off with some fine steel wool or really fine abrasive paper, clean off and grease the slide with cork grease or other suitable lubricant.

Ah, I see you've posted some extra photos which seem to show that the head and barrel can push up against each other, so probably ignore what I've just written above. But I'll post it, just in case it has some relevance.

[Terry McGee]

Assuming all is well with the slides, it would be interesting to measure from the centre of the embouchure to the centre of the 3rd hole (which vents the A fingering). I get about 301mm on my Pratten model with the slide fully compressed. That gives me an A about 30 cents sharp of modern pitch (without warming up).

Or put another way, if I extend the slide to tune to A440, I get about 8mm between head and barrel.

[AngelicBeaver]

Yeah, there are some verdigris spots. Seems like the only part of the flute that might have a maintenance issue in the future.

The measurement I'm getting from center of embouchure to the third hole down is about 305mm when fully compressed.

[kkrell]

Yes, the 'P' is for Pratten. All looks reasonable, and the slide seems to close fully. Embouchure looks different from mine, but I haven't seen his Pratten model, only other Rudalls.

Is the flute fairly consistently flat throughout the 1st octave, and even the 2nd octave? Or is the 2nd octave sharp when the slide is fully closed?

My (possibly faulty) understanding is that things that can flatten are:
1) Weak embouchure, or this flute requires a different coverage with your lips than others in your arsenal.
2) Disturbance (object) in the bore.
3) Leaks, which may affect some notes more than others.
4) Cork position should be checked, but generally has the most effect on the 2nd & 3rd octaves.

Kevin

ps: let me know when it's for sale.

I added a couple of extra photos to the album. My flute says
"G. Somers
P"

I'm assuming that means it's the Pratten model.

[Loren]

Nathaniel,

The Somers flute I owned had an embouchure where the blown side chimney wall was cut to a significantly different angle than most flutes I’ve owned/played, which is to say that the angle slopes away from from the player (is more undercut), than the majority of modern simple system flutes you find.

Gary used an angle, at least on my flute, that was very similar to most, but not all, Sam Murray flutes I’ve run across. IME a more steeply undercut blown side embouchure hole requires a different lower lip placement on the headjoint relative to the embouchure hole, and/or adjusted blown airstream angles for the registers , otherwise you can have intonation and possibly playability issues.

Keep in mind that where your lower lip is placed relative to the near side of the embouchure hole can affect overall sharpness/flatness due to having a certain amount of your lip overhanging the edge and impeding airflow out of the embouchure hole: Remember the embouchure is also a tonehole and your lower lip is shading it somewhat, unless you happen to play with your lower lip well back from the edge. I think many players going for a reedy tone, myself included tend to play with the lower lip in a position where it is interacting with the embouchure hole aerodynamics (shading a bit) and then we unconsciously compensate for the induced flatness by “playing sharper” - rolling the headjoint, lipping, adjusting size/speed of the airstream etc., to get to pitch.

Also related to all of this is are your “normal” blowing angles - how much you blown down vs. across for each register affects your pitch on a given flute, and these angles are based largely on the aforementioned lower lip placement, as well as the amount of lip pucker or lack thereof, and the rotational axis of the flute. Now change the flute embouchure undercut without changing your blowing angles (and or lip position relative to the embouchure hole), and you can maybe start to visualize how and where problems with pitch and playability can occur.

While some people may seem to adjust unconsciously to the relatively few flutes with outlier embouchure angle cuts, others may have trouble. Additionally, some players, typically the better ones I suspect, are well aware that they are needing to adjust to these flutes, but they aren’t bothered by it. Finally, there are people who are aware of the issue when they run into it and are able to adjust, but find it really annoying to have to do so. I fall into the latter category and as such sold my Murray and Somers. Both were very good flutes, but I had to play them significantly differently than 98% of all the other good flutes I’ve run across over the years, so I just found it…..not fun to play on those flutes.

To be clear: I don’t find the good Murray flutes (and not all of them are good) difficult to play, nor did I find the Somers flute hard to play, I just found it distracting to play those because my lip position and blowing angles are significantly different on every other flute I own and play regularly, so for me, why bother? But that’s me, and the Somers can be a great flute for many people, it just has to be played differently than many other flutes out there.

Finally, there is certainly validity to the idea that a certain maker could be a sharp player, but a fair number of Somers flutes were made and I don’t recall hearing a bunch of stories about them being flat, that’s something Gary would have sorted quite quickly and easily if it had been a thing. I suppose there could be a scenario where you have a very early model where he hadn’t sorted that yet. Seems low on the list of likelihoods though as I suspect Gary would probably have recalled the flute and made it right.

OK, hope something in all of that is helpful Nathaniel. I’d start by experimenting with lower lip position and blowing angles while using a tuner and see how that affects bringing up the pitch. Failing all of that….. well I’m reminded of a T-shirt I was given as part of a multiday auto rally racing school I went to (shout out to Team O’Neil) the back of the shirt says “blah, blah, blah, ACCELERATE!” Maybe we need a Flute player shirt that reads “blah, blah, blah, BLOW HARDER!” Hmmm, maybe not. Still, when flat and in doubt, blow harder! Just joking. Mostly.

[AngelicBeaver]

Interesting observations. I did try with a tuner, and I can see how a small change in mouth position brings the pitch down. I fiddled with it until I found the best spot. With the slide all the way in, and blowing as powerfully as i could, I could get the pitch dead on all the way up and down two octaves, which is about what I expected. I've been playing flute for ten years now, but I don't fancy myself a master, so it's possible this flute is just built to be blasted by someone with a more powerful embouchure than I currently possess. The previous owner said it compared very favorably to his Olwell, so he might have been making that adjustment unconsciously.

I believe my Le Souef is a quieter flute, as is my Carbony, so perhaps they aren't built for the same power, and that's the reason this one is so flat by comparison.

[Loren]

Interesting observations. I did try with a tuner, and I can see how a small change in mouth position brings the pitch down. I fiddled with it until I found the best spot. With the slide all the way in, and blowing as powerfully as i could, I could get the pitch dead on all the way up and down two octaves, which is about what I expected. I've been playing flute for ten years now, but I don't fancy myself a master, so it's possible this flute is just built to be blasted by someone with a more powerful embouchure than I currently possess. The previous owner said it compared very favorably to his Olwell, so he might have been making that adjustment unconsciously.

I believe my Le Souef is a quieter flute, as is my Carbony, so perhaps they aren't built for the same power, and that's the reason this one is so flat by comparison.

I’ve owned a couple of Olwell Prattens, and have played a bunch more. None of them required blowing hard to play in tune, and I always had plenty of slide left to work with. I don’t recall ever seeing someone playing any Olwell, or most other flutes for that matter, with the slide all the way in (not saying it doesn’t happen), so I don’t think it’s a situation where the Somers simply requires MUCH harder blowing as you describe.

Is there any way you can easily get the flute into the hands of another decent player to see if it plays up to pitch for them? That’s often the quickest way to sort out whether it’s the flute or the player.

[Jayhawk]

Is there any way you can easily get the flute into the hands of another decent player to see if it plays up to pitch for them? That’s often the quickest way to sort out whether it’s the flute or the player.

I'm 100% with Loren on this...it's the best test out there.

Eric

[Conical bore]

I don’t recall ever seeing someone playing any Olwell, or most other flutes for that matter, with the slide all the way in (not saying it doesn’t happen)

FWIW, I have to play my Peter Noy flute with the slide all the way in before it warms up, and it's just barely at A440 even then. After it warms up and goes sharper, I pull the slide out about 1/4 inch. That's it, unless I'm alternating enough with mandolin that the flute doesn't stay warmed up and I need to leave the slide closed.

If that was my only flute I would say I tend to "blow flat." But my Thomas Aebi flute needs at least 1/2 inch or a little more of slide extension to play in pitch after warming up. Same thing with my Lehart low Bb flute. The Bb needs a slightly different embouchure for the low pitch, but I don't think I'm altering my normal embouchure when switching between the Noy and Aebi flutes. So while I may blow a little flat, this makes me think different flute makers and their preference or blowing style can definitely be a factor.

[AngelicBeaver]

Is there any way you can easily get the flute into the hands of another decent player to see if it plays up to pitch for them? That’s often the quickest way to sort out whether it’s the flute or the player.

I'm 100% with Loren on this...it's the best test out there.

Eric

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of trad flute players in my area. San Antonio, TX isn't exactly a hotbed of ITM.

Thanks for the responses. I'll reach out to the guy I bought the flute from and see if he has any thoughts about it.