Thumb position

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mendipman
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Tell us something.: I play flute and stringed instruments and enjoy playing in sessions and for step dancers and teach music part-time. My flutes are a new Gilles Lehart blackwood keyless in D, a c.1820 Clementi 'Nicholson improved' English boxwood single key in F and a simple-system 8-key English blackwood flute made by Richard Weekes of Plymouth, Devon c.1840 both in beautiful, pristine condition. I also have a wooden c.1880 English keyed flageolet. My home is in North Somerset a short distance from where my family come from at Blackford in the Mendip Hills and my repertoire are the tunes that are local to my area. That is the rural vernacular English music from when ordinary working people simply played and danced to their own rhythm with little concern for that which lay beyond a day's walk.
Location: Somerset, England

Thumb position

Post by mendipman »

My post is in response to having found and watched Jem's interesting video demonstrating the Rockstro grip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GruFY6U ... e=youtu.be

My question is in regard to preferred thumb position on the keyless flute that I now play. I have naturally begun to note with the inside pads of my R/hand (piper's grip?). I like the idea of relaxed stability and avoiding any tendency for the 'death grip'. But given the outward pressure from the right thumb required for the Rockstro grip, with the fingers further across the body of the flute, that seems to rule out any way of applying outward pressure without tension in the thumb.

Are there any good resources that demonstrate support and the ideal relaxed thumb position for a keyless played in the way I describe?
jim stone
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Re: Thumb position

Post by jim stone »

I can't seem to use Rockstro. These things seem to be very individual, so,
that said, I will say that I put my rt thumb under the flute, more or less, and use
the rt pinky to brace the flute (except when playing low D). This is relaxed and works
fine, for me. I think it's widespread, especially among Boehm flute players, and worth a try.
Grey Larsen gives detailed instructions in his opus on the flute.
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fiddlerwill
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Re: Thumb position

Post by fiddlerwill »

A tip that really helps me , not a flute player, but it could be of value is to use the side of the thumb as Jen does in his video clip above. Not the pad , that can end up hyperextended but more to the side, with a straight to slightly curved grip, exactly as he demonstrates with the left thumb on the keys. YMMV
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Steampacket
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Re: Thumb position

Post by Steampacket »

Mendipman, Have you seen Steph Germia's flute lesson here regarding her take on embouchure and holding the flute? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goCd1mEWsWs
Adrian W.
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Re: Thumb position

Post by Adrian W. »

That video of Jem's, and a thread from Terry, set me on the road to fixing a lot of issues with my hold. I put up a thread on that a while ago. Anyway, I had a bad case of the grip of death, but now I am pretty comfortable with the left thumb off the flute at all times, and my right hand I have all four fingers available for playing, as I am anchoring with just the thumb. So I guess it's Rockstro. I have a keyed flute so I'd like to be able to use them if i want to. I tried some other variations too, like the way Harry Bradley uses his left thumb almost like a shelf, it seems to me. I tried the stuff in Grey Larsen's book... didn't work for me at all. I tried the hold recommendations in Conal O'Grada's book.... didn't work for me. Anyway, the hold is working better, now it's sorting out my embouchure which had to change a bit.
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
jim stone
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Re: Thumb position

Post by jim stone »

HBradley's rt hand position in this video, especially toward the
beginning, when one can see it, is instructive, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2wPxD-ukCg

Here's JGalway and Matt Molloy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1SPfXOGXEQ
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Re: Thumb position

Post by jim stone »

Adrian W.
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Re: Thumb position

Post by Adrian W. »

[quote="jim stone"]HBradley's rt hand position in this video, especially toward the
beginning, when one can see it, is instructive, IMO.

Right hand or left hand? To me it's the left/top thumb that's interesting.... instead of gripping the flute, it's resting on a shelf. When you try it, you end up with the finger tips coming more straight down on the tone holes, again like Harry, rather than the flats of the pads.
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
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mendipman
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Tell us something.: I play flute and stringed instruments and enjoy playing in sessions and for step dancers and teach music part-time. My flutes are a new Gilles Lehart blackwood keyless in D, a c.1820 Clementi 'Nicholson improved' English boxwood single key in F and a simple-system 8-key English blackwood flute made by Richard Weekes of Plymouth, Devon c.1840 both in beautiful, pristine condition. I also have a wooden c.1880 English keyed flageolet. My home is in North Somerset a short distance from where my family come from at Blackford in the Mendip Hills and my repertoire are the tunes that are local to my area. That is the rural vernacular English music from when ordinary working people simply played and danced to their own rhythm with little concern for that which lay beyond a day's walk.
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Thumb position

Post by mendipman »

The Bradley video gives a good view of his right hand/thumb and is really helpful. His right thumb position is also different to mine and I may give that a try too.

Thank you for the great support on this forum. Now to practice and adjust my thumb positions...
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Terry McGee
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Re: Thumb position

Post by Terry McGee »

Just on a point of historical accuracy, I do wish we could get away from the use of the expression "Rockstro Grip" in favour of something less directed and more accurate, e.g. "19th century flute hold". Certainly Rockstro used that approach to holding the flute and promoted it in his book, but he was among the last to use it, and certainly not the first. He simply carried it over from his early days playing the 8-key. It's not so important with the Boehm flute, as the keys bring the fingers together and make precision in covering less important, even if you have an open-holed model.

Rockstro gives Tromlitz, writing 100 years earlier, as the earliest authority advocating it. So we would be more accurate calling it the Tromlitz hold. Or more usefully perhaps the "three-point hold"?

Rockstro certainly fought a strong rear-guard action. I've assembled his relevant discussions at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_ ... flute.html
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mendipman
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Tell us something.: I play flute and stringed instruments and enjoy playing in sessions and for step dancers and teach music part-time. My flutes are a new Gilles Lehart blackwood keyless in D, a c.1820 Clementi 'Nicholson improved' English boxwood single key in F and a simple-system 8-key English blackwood flute made by Richard Weekes of Plymouth, Devon c.1840 both in beautiful, pristine condition. I also have a wooden c.1880 English keyed flageolet. My home is in North Somerset a short distance from where my family come from at Blackford in the Mendip Hills and my repertoire are the tunes that are local to my area. That is the rural vernacular English music from when ordinary working people simply played and danced to their own rhythm with little concern for that which lay beyond a day's walk.
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Thumb position

Post by mendipman »

I have no stake at all in the name of the grip Jem's video demonstrates. Makes no difference to me what it's called.

Actually I think in the video it's referred to as a 'hanging thumb' grip or some such?
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Re: Thumb position

Post by jemtheflute »

We're kinda stuck with the "Rockstro" label, like it or not, history or not. I agree with Terry it's not the best label and I'd go for "3-point support" myself, but the "Rockstro" term is widely recognised. I disagree with Terry that Rockstro was the last to use or advocate it or that calling it "Nineteenth Century" would be accurate. It's alive and well in mainstream Böhm circles, though by no means dominantly so or without controversy.

My "Dangling Left Thumb" video (linked by Mendipman above) is an *exercise suggestion*, dependent (ooops!) on using the 3-point support method, yes, but not a support method in itself. I don’t advocate doing it full time. I've another video which is a short, quick exposition of the hold/support method itself. https://youtu.be/lssGAtVBS_8
Sometime I hope to make a longer, more detailed one. I'm delighted folk are finding them useful.
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jim stone
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Re: Thumb position

Post by jim stone »

Yes, these videos are most helpful.
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Re: Thumb position

Post by Normski »

Saw a guy playing in a session in Ennis last night with his left thumb completely free and was playing at quite a lick as well.
Adrian W.
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Re: Thumb position

Post by Adrian W. »

Normski wrote:Saw a guy playing in a session in Ennis last night with his left thumb completely free and was playing at quite a lick as well.
Took a while but I'm comfortable now with my left thumb free.... I play for a teeny bit with my thumb on the flute till I'm sure I'm lined up, then it drops off, available for the key if I want it. If I leave it on the flute, I'm back to cramping very shortly.
In Cape Breton, Nova Scotia
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