Questions on grip from a beginner

[mindmann]

Hello all. I'm new around here. Been reading some past posts, and it's been great to see all the knowledge that's around here.

I've got a newbie question on grip. I've been learning over the past couple of months on a bamboo G flute from a local Saturday market. In the past week or two, i purchased my first D irish style flute. I've been trying to relearn everything on this larger flute.

My question is specifically about the index finger on the left hand. My instructor has suggests (strongly) that the second knuckle (near the end of the finger) be straight. So the index finger is in an L shape, and all of the movement comes from the first joint. I've been trying to get that to work, but can't seem to make it work for me. My end knuckle keeps wanting to bend.

How essential is this? Are there folks out there who play with a bent second knuckle? Should I just keep at it until I make the straight knuckle work? I obviously want to follow my teacher's advice, but I can't seem to get it to work at all, even after keeping at it.

Thanks for your help.

[jim stone]

I've never heard of this before and doubt that it is essential. played a decade.
Studied with a number of teachers, gone to a number of workshops.

[Denny]

well howdy! and thanks fer openin' that can o'worms!!

From Terry McGee's site Rockstro on holding the flute

From James Peoples site Posture & Grip

From The Session Nice & easy ~ Flute Grip

From here Pipers Grip

and last from Alpha Grip The Magic Flute
yer not a Brit are ya? (they're a bit odd sometimes)

[tsackett]

Grips ("holds" really, as Jem often points out) are pretty individual. Teachers and acknowledged authorities like Rockstro make various lists of the things you should never, ever do -- piper's grip, resting one end of the flute on your shoulder, using your thumb to support weight, etc -- but you can go on to youtube and find examples of great players doing all these things.

Is your teacher someone who specifically teaches Irish traditional music? I can't picture the L-shaped left index finger position you describe. It almost sounds as if your teacher is telling you to close the hole with the very tip of your finger, rather than the pad. This sounds unusual, but your teacher might be trying to help you compensate for some other aspect of your hold.

-Tom

[mindmann]

Thanks for the great resources. Definitely some things to think over. It's really nice to read through that kind of thing in detail. I obviously know very little about it.

Tsackett: With the way my teacher is describing it, the hole is covered by the pad, just above the gristle of the end knuckle. The bend occurs at the knuckle closes to the hand, and the end knuckle is straight. Hard to describe. I just can't seem to keep that finger straight. That end knuckle keeps wanting to bend. My teacher teaches several different forms of traditional music, and a variety of instruments, but Irish Flute is one of his focuses.

[lingpupa]

Cynic_on
He's just trying to justify the money you are paying him by giving you "rules" you wouldn't get elsewhere.
Cynic_off
Even with cynic off, it's tosh.

[david_h]

You could look at some video of people who seem to know that they are doing, like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7NxJDp4zQ. Does he mean that it should be like MM's second finger ?

[jemtheflute]

Yup, "hold", NOT "grip".....

These things depend on the individual's hands in relation to the flute they are playing. A fatter tube will need/cause a different hand posture to a thinner one; wider or narrower spacings between tone-holes will affect hand posture.......

On a normal simple system wooden flute held with a conventional classical style hold ("Rockstro" if you like), I would think it unlikely that your L1 would be straight through the top knuckle - mine certainly isn't, nor is L2, though L3 is. My L1 certainly pivots its motions on the 2nd knuckle (I count knuckles/finger sections from the tip, not from the palm), but the top/1st joint is moderately bent. I could not hold the flute against my face with the side/base of the lowest section/3rd knuckle if I straightened that top joint totally - it would force my hand away from the side of the tube if I also wished to reach and cover the other holes. but that is my hand, not yours. You can check out my hold on my YT clips, but aside from slight differences in hand proportions, it doesn't look any different to Matt Molloy's in the previously linked clip (no other aspect of my fluting bears any comparison to MM, alas!).

Is your teacher trying to get you to do exactly what s/he does without paying proper attention to your own physiology?

If you'd like it, I have a Word.doc "hand out" on flute hold (partially summarising old threads here) which I would happily send you as an e-mail attachment if you 'd like me to.

[Rob Sharer]

Don't know your teacher, but maybe this is what he's talking about:


As has been pointed out, "grip" is the wrong word to use, since we want to eliminate tension in the hands in order to make music on the flute. Furthermore, your individual fingers shouldn't be . By big knuckles, I presume you mean the ones mashing down on the holes; not only will this cause tension overall, but it's counterproductive to the way we want to use our fingers to play Irish music.

Here's where the knuckle shuffle comes in. By "big knuckles", I presume you mean the ones used to punch drywall. By straightening the fingers and moving them from the big knuckles, you're now able to use the weight of your finger instead of your grip strength as the means to cover the holes. Irish fluthing is frequently like playing a percussion instrument, in that you need to get a bounce/ricochet effect to lively up your reels; this only works if you're able to use the weight of your fingers instead of muscle strength.



Rob

[Cubitt]

Let me suggest some things based on my own experience. First, an open-holed (more properly - simple system) flute differs from a Boehm flute in that you don't have covered keys and the hole spacing affects individuals differently. As a result, you must consider your ability to deal with how far the holes are from one another and your ability to cover the holes so that air does not leak. As a Boehm player, I arch my fingers somewhat so that the tips of my fingers do the work. On my simple-system flutes, I have had to experiment. You've probably already found that descriptions of the so-called Piper's Grip vary. What I use is what I will refer to as a modified Piper's Grip. I let the fingers fall over the holes so that they are more or less lying across them as opposed to pointing down on them, which would necessitate an arch to the fingers. The result is a flat-fingered position, but which part of the finger actually covers the hole varies from hole to hole based on what is a natural and comfortable position for the hand. For example, my left index finger covers the hole much closer to the little peak on the tip of the finger than on the index finger of my rigtht hand, which covers the hole much closer to the first joint. This approach accomplishes three things: it ensures your hand is in the most comfortable and stress-free position, it helps to cover the holes completely because you will tend to cover every hole with a bigger and more fleshy part of your finger, and as Rob points out, it allows the fingers to move more percussively, which is best for playing Irish music.

[Doug_Tipple]

and as Rob points out, it allows the fingers to move more percussively, which is best for playing Irish music.

I get it now. I was doing it all wrong. I need to think of the flute as a drum. Right?

[Cubitt]

and as Rob points out, it allows the fingers to move more percussively, which is best for playing Irish music.

I get it now. I was doing it all wrong. I need to think of the flute as a drum. Right?

Get with the program, Doug! If you've got a Boehm you can tap out entire tunes without even blowing into it. My favorite for that is "Joy to the World."

[Doug_Tipple]

and as Rob points out, it allows the fingers to move more percussively, which is best for playing Irish music.

I get it now. I was doing it all wrong. I need to think of the flute as a drum. Right?

Get with the program, Doug! If you've got a Boehm you can tap out entire tunes without even blowing into it. My favorite for that is "Joy to the World."

My Chinese Boehm flute is pretty bad, but at least it doesn't make any tapping noises when I depress the keys, thank G_d. Yes, I remember a college beginning piano class (years before the invention of the electronic keyboard) where we practiced two-hand scales with fake keyboards. Let me tell you, there was a lot of clicking (or was it tapping?) going on in that classroom.

[MTGuru]

My Chinese Boehm flute is pretty bad, but at least it doesn't make any tapping noises when I depress the keys

It should, if you want it to. Cubitt's talking about starting with your fingers above the keys, not on them, then deliberately and forcefully hammering the keys down onto the tube. You get a percussive, resonant pop. There's a Flook track where Sarah Allen does this with her alto flute as the main accompaniment.

Of course, you can get the same resonant pop on keyless flute or whistle by striking your fingers down like little hammers or levers. That's the percussive feel that Rob and Cubitt describe, with the idea that going for the pop should underlie your normal fingering anyway for the right sound, especially with certain ornamentation. I suspect a common beginner's mistake is to be too timid with their fingering - gently placing or lowering the fingers instead of actively hammering them down. Thinking in terms of the percussive pop can help to correct this.

[benhall.1]

My Chinese Boehm flute is pretty bad, but at least it doesn't make any tapping noises when I depress the keys

It should, if you want it to. Cubitt's talking about starting with your fingers above the keys, not on them, then deliberately and forcefully hammering the keys down onto the tube. You get a percussive, resonant pop. There's a Flook track where Sarah Allen does this with her alto flute as the main accompaniment.

Of course, you can get the same resonant pop on keyless flute or whistle by striking your fingers down like little hammers or levers. That's the percussive feel that Rob and Cubitt describe, with the idea that going for the pop should underlie your normal fingering anyway for the right sound, especially with certain ornamentation. I suspect a common beginner's mistake is to be too timid with their fingering - gently placing or lowering the fingers instead of actively hammering them down. Thinking in terms of the percussive pop can help to correct this.

You do get that "resonant pop" if you hit the keys hard on a Boehm flute. However, that isn't the percussive accompaniment that Sarah Allen normally employs. She uses a sort of beatbox technique of a very explosive, staccato tonguing, producing a sound that's as close to percussion as a flute can get. She does this quite a lot with Flook in a live concert situation.