Sharp at the bottom, Flat at the top

[chris_coreline]

Well i was back in Ireland over christmas playing a lot of different sessions, unfortunitly, a lot of people were commenting that Mr Happy (my flute) was out of tune.
Corralating the reports from forign sessions and the Leeds local session (wednesday night at the chemic, 21:00 come on doooowwn) I have made the assertion that the metween me and the flute, when overblown in the 'traditional honk' technique is flat at the bottom and sharp at the top. This is whith the tuning slide pulled out to nearly an inch.
One of the observers at belfast noted, after taking the flute for a spin, that it seems more naturally suited to being an e flat instrument (with the head joint all the way in, it playes easier)

Now i dont want to get rid of this flute, its part-way to being an antique, neither can i afford to get a new axe to play in sessions, reserving mr happy for solo work and household noodeling, so i would like to find a way, by technique or modification, to correct the deviations.

The first step on this epic voyage will be getting a decent trace of the instruments inonation using a set of tuning tools (probably the ones mentioned by Terry McGee, but im thinking about writing one myself) - this will take some time to get as ill need to set up a recording rig again.

While im waiting for that i would like to ask your advice on what is going on inside the instrument, and any potential fixes. heres what i have so far:

[*]Lipping more - i may be able to effect the second 8ve at the cost of being really tricky
[*]Moving the cork - may address the upper octive issues at the cost of tone AFIK
[*]'o' rings between joints - flattens the instrument overall, wont help the second 8ve
[*]Wax tuning - should fix the intonation but its expensive, messey and of limited scope

what are your thoughts?

[chas]

Is there a quasi-local flutemaker who can give it a tuneup? John Gallagher did this for me with an old high-pitch flute, and there are at least a couple of other US makers/repairers who do this. In my case, it was a fraction of the cost of a new keyless flute.

[chris_coreline]

Is there a quasi-local flutemaker who can give it a tuneup? John Gallagher did this for me with an old high-pitch flute, and there are at least a couple of other US makers/repairers who do this. In my case, it was a fraction of the cost of a new keyless flute.

Yep, im hoping this thread acts as a bat-signal to him, it is, none other then Jemtheflute - be he is out wales direction, and with my migration to cork, and general desire to know more about the maintnece of the instrument, im happy to have a hack at non desruptice stuff.

[eskin]

I had a similar issue with my 1857 Metzler 8-Key, had to pull the slide out nearly an inch to play at A-440, but the instrument really didn't play well set that way. My solution was to have Hammy Hamilton build a custom head joint for me. You still have to be conscious of the intonation across the octaves, but it dramatically improved the instrument's overall intonation and playability at A-440.

[jemtheflute]

Chris, we're talking the one you bought from me? Your post title and text seem contradictory! Which is it? If you're really flat at the top and sharp at the bottom, not the inverse (which is what I'd expect and what I found with it, though not unduly so for an instrument of its type - cf the YT clip I did to demo it), gawd knows what you're doing! You also should not need to pull the slide out an inch! Doing so suggests you really haven't found the right embouchure technique for this flute. You can see in my clips using it on YT that I didn't have it nearly that open to play at 440 with it, and I by no means have the best, strongest, honkiest, down-blowing, flute-flattening ITM embouchure! This other clip that I haven't published previously (due to mess-ups in playing) shows the slide setting I had it at rather better than the YT ones and you could check my intonation on the clips with whatever software to see just what I was getting from it, as well as evaluating your own intonation. It should be obvious in the clips that I wasn't performing any embouchure gymnastics to play it decently. Even with the slide totally closed, there's no way this is an Eb or High Pitch flute! I was using a pretty normal slide opening for a flute of this vintage - between 10-17mm depending on ambient conditions, same as on my R&R and most other similar flutes - nowhere near an inch (25.4mm). I don't know if I was spot on 440, wouldn't be surprised if I was tending a little sharp.... but I shouldn't be drastically out.

Given you are pulling the slide so far open to get a low-enough pitch for ensemble playing with your current technique, the octaves will doubtless be a somewhat narrowed, which would account for the sharp low end and flat top (if that is what you really meant, as per the thread title).... in which case pushing the stopper in a bit may correct that tendency - that's what you're supposed to do, and if you close the slide up the octaves will be wide (sharp top, flat bottom) and you have to pull it back again. However, if you meant the other way round (as per your OP), a too open and across-blowing embouchure will have the effect of stretching the scale and making the bottom flat (exaggerating any flat foot syndrome) and the upper second 8ve sharp. Messing about with the stopper won't help much with that - you have to fix your embouchure. This is a common problem - I certainly had it, still though to a lesser extent than formerly have it!

Bottom line, I think it's you, not the flute. (Yes, I would say that as I overhauled and sold it, BUT, see my clips!) The give-away is the extreme slide opening - I wouldn't need to open it that far save perhaps in a very extremely hot and damp atmosphere. I strongly urge you not to risk jiggering the flute up completely (and devaluing it by doing so) by getting it "doctored". Doing so will not cure your technique! I certainly would not doctor it myself, beyond possibly beeswaxing the A tone-hole (L3) if that remains persistently sharp for you. I equally strongly urge you to do some serious practice over the medium term to develop your embouchure. Set the slide at about 15mm, put the stopper at 21mm from the centre of the embouchure, get a tuner and work at playing the notes in tune at 440 thus. Better lip-focus, moving the flute lower on your lip and blowing more downwards will all both improve tone and take overall playing pitch down. I'm not saying that one of the top makers could not improve this flute by tweaking the bore and intonation, but I certainly could not, and if you did get one of those folk to do such a job on it, it would not cure the problems you personally are having with it.

As we said when you bought it, this is a flute to grow into and to challenge you to develop your technique, so that when you are ready to move on to a higher end flute you will be able to make the most of what it will offer. As things are, I bet you'd have to pull anyone else's flute's slide way farther out than they do! I still think this is a very decent flute that can take you a long way.

If you are in a position to do so, get a really good player or several to try it out for you - a Harry Bradley or Michael Clarkson, for example. They won't rate it as more than an intermediate flute - which is what it is, but I bet you anything that to play it in tune at 440 they have to close the slide up farther than I did!

One thing you could do, perhaps, is to make a video clip of your own playing to show us what's going on!

[chris_coreline]

thanks for the reply jem.

distructive modifications to this flute were never on the cards! i wouldent dream of it! All of my proposed fixes were wholey reversable.

I was afraid you would say somthing like that - its very hard to learn embrashure, as its hard to describe the milimeter change in lip position which can effect such a drastic change in the tone. but its reassuring that you could get A440 out of it.

Given you are pulling the slide so far open to get a low-enough pitch for ensemble playing with your current technique, the octaves will doubtless be a somewhat narrowed, which would account for the sharp low end and flat top (if that is what you really meant, as per the thread title)....

it *is* definatly sounding sharp at the bottom and flat at the top, probably for the reason you give above, i find i can lip the top 8ve down enough to sound in tune (at least early on in the session before i get tired)

in which case pushing the stopper in a bit may correct that tendency

Actually, this leads me to think - when im closing up at the end of the night and swobing the flute out a allwayse notice that my cleeney stick in knocking against the cork slightly, i wonder have i inadvertantly pushed it out a little over the months?

a too open and across-blowing embouchure will have the effect of stretching the scale and making the bottom flat

This was definatly the case a few months back when i was still playing very very open. Now I may have the opposite problem, overblowing a closed embrashure drives any flute sharp - Mark.p was absolutly right when he advised me not to overblow, i suppose, in my defence, this embrashure is only a few months old.

Ill except the challenge of that video clip - if i can find a way to record and publish it. Id say audio is easier but at the minute it really isnt.

[jemtheflute]

I'll accept the challenge of that video clip - if I can find a way to record and publish it.

If your mobile phone hasn't got a video camera, I bet you know someone whose phone has! That's all my vids are done with! It serves! And most phones with video have some basic editing facilities, and if the phone's owner has set up the phone and their FB account to do so, you can send clips direct from phone to FB, I believe (haven't done this myself). Otherwise, you only have to transfer the file from phone to computer and upload to YT or BoxNet - no cost, no fancy gear needed.

[Sillydill]

Hey Chris,

Have you tried a "Suck Test" to check the key-pads? A tiny leak (most likely near the bottom) could be bending the bell note sharp.

Just thought it would be worth checking.

Best of Luck!

[Aanvil]

I had a similar issue with my 1857 Metzler 8-Key, had to pull the slide out nearly an inch to play at A-440, but the instrument really didn't play well set that way. My solution was to have Hammy Hamilton build a custom head joint for me. You still have to be conscious of the intonation across the octaves, but it dramatically improved the instrument's overall intonation and playability at A-440.

I have what is basically the kissing cousin to Eskin's Metzler. Minor cosmetic detail differences but it's acoustically identical.

I completely respect Jem as he has the chops and the flute science down but while all old flutes will often enough need some sort of attention to keep in tune over all it shouldn't be that much of an effort.

I popped that new Hammy head joint on my own Metzler and it literally exploded to life and became very easy to play in tune.

Eskin will concur.

I'd check into getting a new head.

[jemtheflute]

Aanvil, I agree "it shouldn't be that much effort" to play any decent flute tolerably in tune if your technique is sound - and my point was that I did not find it so - and I'm not by any means that fantastic a player..... have you checked out the clips? I also agree that a good modern head can be a major bonus, viz my own experience in the last 6 months with my new Wilkes head for my own R&R. But I don't think a new head or other tweaking are necessary to get basic decent results with this flute and I suspect the effort is something Chris is going to have to make on any flute. Perhaps he can comment himself on what happens when he plays other flutes - Mark P's Grinter, for example, if that's been permitted??? Or if he hasn't, maybe trying to evaluate his own playing on several flutes may reveal something, though of course the "playing oneself into the flute" factor makes that a less than objective exercise - still potentially worthwhile, I'd say.

BTW, I'm never too sure what that American "got the chops" phrase means (it sounds horrid too! Unlike!). Does it mean "the chops" as in "the face/mouth area" (as in "licking one's chops"), so specifically "having a good embouchure", or does it mean something analogous with "he's got the moves" - i.e. the technical tricks in general, fingering, musical understanding, whatever? When I've seen it I've tended to interpret it contextually as "being able to do the difficult, twiddly bits properly" - is that right?

[Aanvil]

Well, I might first try to read your posts fully before commenting.

That was your flute... so there you go.

Yes, "chops'. Your skills are sharp, finely honed, on your game.

[MTGuru]

Mint jelly goes well with chops, too.

[Denny]

[Rob Sharer]

[MTGuru]

Well, Cheops anyway ... And notice that it's sharp at the top and flat at the bottom.