New player interested in NSP

The Wonderful World of ... Other Bagpipes. All the surly with none of the regs!
Post Reply
AC76
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:36 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a saxophone player looking for my first set of Northumbrian pipes. This forum looks quite promising!

New player interested in NSP

Post by AC76 »

Hello all,

After years of listening to and admiring pipes of all sorts, I’m ready to take the leap. I’ve played saxophone for 35+ years so I have some musical background, but this is a whole new and exciting challenge.

I’ve quickly discovered the Northumbrian community is much smaller than the saxophone community. Big surprise! :) As a sax player, I love the idea of a fully chromatic set, but I’m afraid the pocketbook wouldn’t support such a hit. Perhaps a seven or nine key set is more realistic?

I’m in rural Illinois so a bit isolated.I’m interested to hear about any available sets (preferably in traditional tuning). I’m really only looking for a set in good shape and ready to go. I’ve seen too many beginner sax players lose interest due to poor quality and/or condition horns. Finally, should I consider a set of bellow-driven SSPs while I search for a set of NSPs or should I just wait?

Thoughts and advice is more than welcome!
User avatar
Tjones
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:16 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Pacific Northwest
Contact:

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by Tjones »

Well, I’ll begin by saying I don’t play the Northumbrian pipes, but I can give you some insights.

I’d say that the variety of pipes developed around the variety of music. Each developed because of the capabilities inherent in the other. The Scottish Highland music for the most part is based around the scale of A ,and nine notes.( Of course the Scottish “A” is a little higher than A = 440) The chanter is played with a semi-closed finger.
With the Northumbrian pipe the chanter developed around the closed fingering system. One has to lift one finger at a time to sound a note. This was achieved by stopping the end of the chanter, so that no sound came out with all the fingers down. As the music changed, the demand for more notes was satisfied by adding keys. But It retained its close fingering as a way of playing the chanter. It accounts for the bubbly, staccato sound of the pipes. Many of the pipes are in different keys, like F.
As the music changes, you see the developed of other pipes ~ the border - Lowland pipes, instead of just sounding the nine notes of the Scottish highland chanter, you see an octave and a 4th. The chanter is still played like a Highland chanter, but with more range. The border music takes advantage of this greater range.
When the pipes start to make it into more advanced settings, (The Beggars Opera for an example.) One sees the develop of a chanter that will play two full octaves. The pastoral pipes, and the union pipes. The early versions of these still used fingerings similar to the highland pipes, but with the two octave range, without the use of a lot of keys. One of the problems with the pastoral and early union pipes was the lack of being able to play staccato like the Northumbrian pipes.
Someone had the bright idea of removing the foot joint and stopping the end of the chanter on the leg. With this development you could play both the typical sound of the bagpipe and the staccato sound of the Northumbrian pipes, over the whole two octave range, for the most part, without keys. They come later. You now have the ulleann pipes. The fingering is closed when playing on the knee, but can be played more open. The Uilleann pipe is the most versatile of the piping family. The most common music is Irish traditional music.


The reason I’m going over this little bit of history, is that deciding on the type of music you like and want to play is just as important as the type of pipes you decide.

The Scottish small pipes was developed pretty late in the history of the pipes as an alternative to the louder Great Highland pipes. It relies on similar fingering to the GHP. The bottom of the chanter is open and is played semi-closed, give a much different playing experience and sound than the staccato, bubblyness of the Northumbrian pipes. Most of the music played on the SSP is from the Scottish Highland background. If you wanted to play Northumbrian music on the SSP, you would be limited to the very early music from that background, and much of it written in a different key, than the standard A, Bb,C or D keys that you can purchase the SSP in.

I apologize for rambling on ~ But I do think it’s important to consider the type of music as well as the type of pipes.
AC76
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:36 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a saxophone player looking for my first set of Northumbrian pipes. This forum looks quite promising!

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by AC76 »

Thank you so much for your thorough reply! You make a fine point regarding music. To be honest I love it all, but I find myself drawn to NSP recordings time and again. Whether it’s the music itself or purely the character of the pipes themselves, I’m not sure. All I can tell you is the NSP pulls me in like no other.

I had someone advise that additional keys not only add expense, but also the potential need to additional fettling. As a sax player I am spoiled by my instruments chromatic range and perhaps that is part of what pulls me in to the NSP “sound”?

All I know is that it is VERY difficult finding a set new or used. Thanks again for the response, I need to spend some time reading it again and reflecting a bit on my thoughts.
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by Peter Duggan »

Tjones wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:50 am As the music changes, you see the developed of other pipes ~ the border - Lowland pipes, instead of just sounding the nine notes of the Scottish highland chanter, you see an octave and a 4th. The chanter is still played like a Highland chanter, but with more range. The border music takes advantage of this greater range.
Some will overblow into a second register, but some won't.
The Scottish small pipes was developed pretty late in the history of the pipes as an alternative to the louder Great Highland pipes. It relies on similar fingering to the GHP. The bottom of the chanter is open and is played semi-closed, give a much different playing experience and sound than the staccato, bubblyness of the Northumbrian pipes. Most of the music played on the SSP is from the Scottish Highland background.
I'd say the SSP is more reinvented because historic examples do exist. And some players play only lowland repertoire or style.
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
AC76
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:36 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a saxophone player looking for my first set of Northumbrian pipes. This forum looks quite promising!

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by AC76 »

Thanks for the additional information! I think I’m drawn to closed-finger pipes, but there just aren’t many out there. Maaaaaybe a Uilleann practice set would satisfy me, but I really am drawn to the NSP. Convincing myself to wait will be a challenge, but probably the most wise approach. I’m sure GAS is a very really thing in the piping community just as it is in the sax community! :lol:
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by pancelticpiper »

AC76 wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:39 am After years of listening to and admiring pipes of all sorts, I’m ready to take the leap.

As a sax player, I love the idea of a fully chromatic set, but I’m afraid the pocketbook wouldn’t support such a hit. Perhaps a seven or nine key set is more realistic?
From the standpoint of somebody who has played Highland pipes (great and small) and uilleann pipes for over 40 years, and played NSP for a few years, and Boehm flute as well (so I'm familiar with the general fingering approach of the Sax) I would say that the uilleann pipes will be the most familiar to you both in fingerings and in overall stylistic possibilities.

Both the Sax and the uilleann chanter achieve their range from overblowing the octave, and the "break" happens at the same place. (Though the UP chanter, like the flute, lacks a register key.)

Besides, to make an uilleann chanter fully chromatic only requires 3 keys (F natural, G sharp, and B flat) though a key for 2nd-octave C natural is the most common key to see fitted. (There's an open finger-hole for D#/Eb, and C natural in the low octave is done by crossfingering, thus a keyless uilleann chanter has a chromatic region B C C# D D# E.)

As you probably know the NSP achieves its range through extending the length of the chanter both below and above the fingered region, which concept of course is shared by the Sax. This means a diatonic NSP chanter still needs several keys, to get its range. Then more keys are required to fill in the chromatic notes.

On either the NSP or UP chanter playing outside the ordinary diatonic (or semi-chromatic) range requires a great amount of practice to get good at it.
AC76 wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:39 am I’m interested to hear about any available sets (preferably in traditional tuning).
I don't know what "traditional tuning" means. Pretty much all bagpipes are tuned to Just Intonation due to every note of the chanter being heard against a constant drone.

Do you mean the traditional NSP pitch? I would recommend the bigger chanter in D, which sounds wonderful and is far more easily played in ensembles. Seems to me that the traditional NSP pitch is only useful for gathering with other NSP players. (In like manner the modern pitch of Highland chanters doesn't correspond with any Concert Pitch note, being halfway between B flat and B natural, and is only useful for playing with other Highland pipers.)
AC76 wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:39 am Should I consider a set of bellow-driven SSPs while I search for a set of NSPs or should I just wait?
Ha! It reminds me of the woman I've known for ages who bought a violin to get some practice on bowed instruments, to prepare herself for the instrument she aimed to play: the Gadulka.

30 years on she's a great fiddler, and never did get a Gadulka!

Scottish pipes (great, small, or in the middle) and Northumbrian pipes are completely different beasts. I would say get the instrument you intended on playing, and not the instrument you don't intend on playing.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
AC76
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:36 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a saxophone player looking for my first set of Northumbrian pipes. This forum looks quite promising!

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by AC76 »

Thanks so much for your input! This is indeed exactly what I was looking for. Yes, my comment on tuning was in regard to the traditional F+ of NSPs, but you make a fine point in regards to ensemble playing. I love playing instruments in their tradition, but you couldn’t pay me to try using a high pitch sax in ANY ensemble!

I keep listening to SSP, UP, and NSP and my heart and desire is truly with the NSP. Patience will be key on this as it seems the pool of new and used instruments is tiny worldwide. So many makers are now retired and few are stepping in to fill the void.

I might be satisfied with a UP practice set and your comments lend to that idea. I just wonder if I will be truly happy with that choice. My budget MIGHT allow for a UP practice set while I wait for a set of NSPs, but again would I be developing UP technique that is in conflict to what I need for NSP? I’m sure it would be good for bellows development, but beyond that??? Or perhaps I get hooked and focus on finding a half set of UPs...

Thanks again and happy new year!
User avatar
Tjones
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:16 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Pacific Northwest
Contact:

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by Tjones »

AC76

From what you’ve written, I’d suggest you stay the course in looking for a set of Northumbrian small pipes. Even though the Uilleann pipes are very versatile pipes, they won’t be the same as the Northumbrian small pipes playing the music of Northumbrian.
Here are two of the best playing a duo, a great comparison , you’ve probably seen it, but always enjoyable.

https://youtu.be/x02rpK7uzkg


I’m pretty sure you are right about the lack of availability of the NPS here in the US. You have probably tried these sources, but if not, maybe they will help in your search.

Northumbrian Pipers’ Society ~ Good links, good info
https://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk


Richard and Anita Evans (They are retired, but a lot of good info)
https://evansbagpipes.wordpress.com

These groups may not be active, but that might mean someone who’s not using their pipes, might be willing to sell.

New England Pipers’ Group
bagpiperjohn@gmail.com

Pacific Northwest NSP Group
plhickey@comcast.net


Another Idea you might try reaching out to some of the players here in the USA, they might know better what might be available or who to contact.

Dick Hensold
http://www.dickhensold.com

Ian Lawther
Ian Lawther @ bagpipediscs

Neal MacMillan
nealmacmillan @ comcast.net

Mike Sharp ~ I’m not sure if he makes them or just works on them.
Los Gatos, California USA, (510) 209-7950 www.sharpbagpipes.com 


Andy May ~ Although Andy is not based in the USA , I think he’d be worth contacting. He is now making the pipes
https://www.facebook.com/northumbrianpiper

As you’ve played a chromatic instrument with a full two octave range, you might be disappointed in an instrument that isn’t fully chromatic and hasn’t the range you are accustom too. That was my experience with the small pipe I bought to try out. I ended up with a set of Pastoral pipes that had the two octave range and is almost chromatic (no Eb). Although I mainly play Irish music, I have no problems playing that music. A few years ago I had some doubt, and wondered if I should have gotten an Uilleann pipe, so I modified my chanter so It would easily remove from the bag and I could attach an Uilleann chanter. I went to a workshop for Uilleann beginners. After a week of trying the Uilleann chanter on my pipes, I wasn’t convinced I need a new chanter, the fingering didn’t transfer over that easily for me, and I didn’t feel moved by the Uilleann chanter, so my Pastoral chanter is just fine for me.

My point is ~ go for the pipe you want, but get one that will match you experience. Good luck!
User avatar
The Sporting Pitchfork
Posts: 1636
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Dante's "Inferno;" canto VI, line 40
Contact:

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by The Sporting Pitchfork »

There's already been a lot of good advice written here, so I'll try not to repeat too much. Apologies if I do.

So, like many of the other people who have responded, I do not play the NSP myself--yet. I've played Scottish GHB and SSP since the mid-90s and uilleann pipes for about 20 years (with some extended sabbaticals from each at various points). I play a set of SSP in A by Hamish Moore, which I love, but in recent years I've really been drawn to SSP in C, so about eight months ago, I started looking for a set. The price had certainly gone up quite a bit since getting my set from Hamish in 1996 for about £900. (Which I remember seemed like a fortune at the time! Ha!) I really wasn't sure I wanted to throw well over $2000 at an instrument that would likely have limited use playing with most of the other musicians I currently know. Then I got into an interesting chat with a fellow who plays SSP and NSP who said that he just plugs a C SSP chanter into his NSP, tunes three of his four drones C-G-C, and away he goes.

I've loved listening to NSP since very early on, and over the years, I've learned a few Northumbrian tunes that fit the Scottish scale or that can be played in G on uilleann pipes, but I'd never seriously considered taking them up before. This discovery got the bagpipe-acquisition-gears cranking in my brain again, and after contacting a few NSP makers, I ordered an 11-key set in concert F with a matching SSP chanter in C from Philip Gruar. I'm hoping he'll be done with it later this year, but I'm not in a huge rush. While certainly not cheap, the total cost is quite reasonable and not that much more than I would have paid for a set of SSPs from a good maker.

I decided on concert F pitch, mostly because I just like the way they sound the best (concert G pipes in particular can be a bit shrill in my opinion), but if I really get into playing NSP I might order an additional 7-key chanter in "traditional" F+ pitch since it seems that many pipers both in the UK and N. America default to this pitch when playing together.

One thing I've done in the meantime is get a Fagerstrom techno-chanter set up for NSP pitch and fingering. This is an electronic chanter that has drones you can turn on and off. They retail for about $350, I think. If you're interested in NSP but not quite sure it's right for you, this would be a great way to try them out without breaking the bank. I got mine from Pipeline Bagpipes in New Jersey. If you order one, make sure you specify that you want the NSP version, as there are also GHB/SSP-only versions. (Mine does all three, which is kinda nice.)
http://www.pipeline-bagpipes.com/PCT/pr ... Pipes.html

You should also get in touch with the good people at the Northumbrian Pipers' Society, who I've found to be very helpful and encouraging. https://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/

If you can stomach Facebook, the Northumbrian Piping Newsgroup is actually a really wonderful bunch of people, and many of them have a delightfully wicked sense of humor. I think I just saw a post from someone in Vancouver, BC selling a Burleigh set just the other day. https://www.facebook.com/groups/131491660229952

As for NSP makers, Philip Gruar doesn't have a webpage, but his contact information is on the Northumbrian Pipers' Society website. Other good makers worth contacting would be Kim Bull and Paul Tabbush. Andy May makes great sets, but I think he said that his current waitlist is 3+ years. Ray Sloan's NSPs have a great reputation, but they're also a bit more expensive. Some other well-known makers like David Burleigh, Richard & Anita Evans, and Dave Shaw are retired or at least semi-retired and not taking new orders. I think Mike Sharp in California mostly focuses on repairing sets but it wouldn't hurt to ask. John Liestman was for many years pretty much the only pipemaker in the US who focused on NSPs, but I don't think he's taking orders anymore. (Though again, it wouldn't hurt to reach out and ask.)

Used sets, particularly Burleigh sets, appear for sale online from time to time. I think he made something like over 2,000 sets, and the consensus seems to be that they're generally pretty good, though some are better than others. Even if they're not in the best shape when you buy them, there are some pipemakers, like Mike Sharp, who could get them in good working order and maybe even improve them.

Lastly, there are a whole lot of great Northumbrian pipers out there to listen to these days for inspiration. There's a lot of great music on Youtube and Soundcloud at the moment if you take the time to look for it. In addition to "big" names like Kathryn Tickell, Chris Ormston (probably my fave), and Andy May, there are a whole lot of great players not that well-known outside the UK. Edric Ellis, Anthony Robb, Alice Robinson, Adrian Schofield, and U.S.-based pipers Bill Wakefield, Ian Lawther, and John Dally are all well worth a listen.

Good luck! Keep us posted on how you get on!
AC76
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:36 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I’m a saxophone player looking for my first set of Northumbrian pipes. This forum looks quite promising!

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by AC76 »

Thank you for the additional replies! I apologize for taking so long to respond, I didn't get a notification and have been busy getting the semester started. These are great responses and I look forward to following up more thoroughly!

I can update that I was able to find an old set of Burleighs and I am waiting for them to arrive. While I wanted to buy something that was set up and ready to go, these will probably need some fettling since they have sat for a while. I've worked on my saxes for many years, so I'm not afraid of simple tasks, but ultimately, I'll want to get them to a fettler for a proper set-up. I follow up again once I have them in hand. I was starting to lean towards a used Uilleann practice set since they are so much more plentiful and the community is a bit larger, but these popped up for roughly the same price. I like the tone and character of both types of pipes, but my heart is really with the NSP. That said, thinking with the heart over the head can be a dangerous thing... I suppose I'll find out in short order! :D
User avatar
Steve Bliven
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: Dartmouth, Massachusetts, USA

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by Steve Bliven »

Depending on your travel budget and time, you might consider The Pipers' Gathering in Litchfield, CT from 19–21 August. This event brings together all manner of pipes (generally not including Highland pipes as they have lots of events of their own) including Northumbrian and Scottish smallpipes and Uilleann pipes. Instruction, workshops, concerts, vendors and general mingling offer opportunities to pick up all sorts of information and skills. For more info check the Gathering web site.

Best wishes.

Steve
Live your life so that, if it was a book, Florida would ban it.
timmy
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I failed at playing whistles, so I took up Northumbrian Smallpipes. My partner (an Uillean piper) recommended this forum.

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by timmy »

[Thread revival. - Mod]

How's it going?
User avatar
pancelticpiper
Posts: 5298
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Playing Scottish and Irish music in California for 45 years.
These days many discussions are migrating to Facebook but I prefer the online chat forum format.
Location: WV to the OC

Re: New player interested in NSP

Post by pancelticpiper »

Steve Bliven wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:02 am Depending on your travel budget and time, you might consider The Pipers' Gathering in Litchfield, CT from 19–21 August. This event brings together all manner of pipes (generally not including Highland pipes as they have lots of events of their own) including Northumbrian and Scottish smallpipes and Uilleann pipes. Instruction, workshops, concerts, vendors and general mingling offer opportunities to pick up all sorts of information and skills. For more info check the Gathering web site.
Great suggestion!

For sure this would be the best introduction of all, to see and hear in person exactly what all these various pipes are like, and to meet players and makers.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
Post Reply