I'm ready to spend a large amount, if necessary, to get a 2-row B/C box that will help improve my playing (I've less than 2 yrs on the box), and possibly last me for many years. I've been asking friendly box players wherever I can find them (mostly online here as there is only 1 other B/C player within 2500 km of me and he has no experience beyond his lovely old Paolo). From reading online I'm keen on the tone and quality build of the Castagnaris and tend towards the Kriss III because a)the extra reed whether L or M would give me a little flexibilty and variation in sound, and b) I understand the buttons are larger (like the Paolos) and slightly more spaced than the Dinns. I'm a fairly hefty bloke, so the extra weight of the 3 reeds doesn't seem an issue.
I'd particularly appreciate any experiences people have had of the Keanebox - a version of the Castagnari Kriss III badged for James Keane of NY (http://www.jameskeane.com). These seem well priced though I'm still unclear about what the bass register does if it isn't removing thirds. Anything about the Dinns would be great too - seen a few comments that the Dinn III is too mild-mannered, and the Dinn II too small/unfeatured if this is my one big buy.
Of course if you think the Castas are rubbish or poor value etc and have other suggestions, please let me know.
Cheers
Martin
PS I may not respond quickly to any replies as I'm in West Australia and it's getting late!
Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
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Don Roberts
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Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
Hi Martin, you don't say what type of music you are playing, I assume Irish or celtic of some kind. If that be the case, one thing that is very important is the bass end weight. Even if the overall weight is not a problem for you the bass weight can hamper your speed and can be more difficult when playing intricate material.
I play a Castignari Dinn II. Mine is C#/D, the features are minimal yes, no stop to remove thirds etc. But still it is a very good box and powerful. I play in large session group, maybe 15 to 20 people. I have no problem with hearing my box in the crowd. It is swing tuned which I think helps in that regard. Another thing to consider is how well the box breathes by use of the air button. If you don't play the bass you will need to use the air alot with fast material.
Other boxes you might consider, Beltuna Sara II or III, I have heard good things about these instruments. http://www.cantiglioneaccordions.com for info but you can also get them elsewhere.
Peter Hyde in Australia makes a wonderful box, might be your best bet. I have played one of these and they are super fast. I have a friend with at least two of the Hyde boxes, she prefers them over all of her others.
Hope this helps
Good Luck
I play a Castignari Dinn II. Mine is C#/D, the features are minimal yes, no stop to remove thirds etc. But still it is a very good box and powerful. I play in large session group, maybe 15 to 20 people. I have no problem with hearing my box in the crowd. It is swing tuned which I think helps in that regard. Another thing to consider is how well the box breathes by use of the air button. If you don't play the bass you will need to use the air alot with fast material.
Other boxes you might consider, Beltuna Sara II or III, I have heard good things about these instruments. http://www.cantiglioneaccordions.com for info but you can also get them elsewhere.
Peter Hyde in Australia makes a wonderful box, might be your best bet. I have played one of these and they are super fast. I have a friend with at least two of the Hyde boxes, she prefers them over all of her others.
Hope this helps
Good Luck
America Dammit
Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
Hi Don
Thanks for your very useful comments. You guessed correctly - I play almost only Irish with Scottish salted through, and a few other novelty/busking tunes. I've heard very good things about the Dinn II, and would probably go for that if I wasn't lured by extra voice in the treble, and the bass register, and the bigger Paolo-sized buttons. I'm not looking for extra volume. the two sessions I can get to aren't that loud and there are no other boxes to compete with!
The Kriss III/Keanebox is still only 8 basses, so I don't expect it to be very heavy on that side. The heavier treble side might actually add a bit of stability - do you think? The Kriss III owners I've spoken to online also played Irish, and didn't mention any problem with inertia on the bass side.
Very interesting about the Beltunas. I'd seen the name but couldn't find a price list etc. I'll definitely look into them before jumping for the Casta. I contacted Peter Hyde before looking at anything else. His boxes seem to absolute topclass, but a little out of my pricerange. Also there is a hint that they are more fragile than others (certainly than a Casta) which worries me, given that Perth to anywhere is a lot of flying/other transport which might knock the box around. Your friend with 2 Hyde boxes is in
a fairly elite club! Kay Hickman or Sharon Shannon maybe?
Thanks for your kind advice, and if anything else comes to mind. . .
- Martin
Thanks for your very useful comments. You guessed correctly - I play almost only Irish with Scottish salted through, and a few other novelty/busking tunes. I've heard very good things about the Dinn II, and would probably go for that if I wasn't lured by extra voice in the treble, and the bass register, and the bigger Paolo-sized buttons. I'm not looking for extra volume. the two sessions I can get to aren't that loud and there are no other boxes to compete with!
The Kriss III/Keanebox is still only 8 basses, so I don't expect it to be very heavy on that side. The heavier treble side might actually add a bit of stability - do you think? The Kriss III owners I've spoken to online also played Irish, and didn't mention any problem with inertia on the bass side.
Very interesting about the Beltunas. I'd seen the name but couldn't find a price list etc. I'll definitely look into them before jumping for the Casta. I contacted Peter Hyde before looking at anything else. His boxes seem to absolute topclass, but a little out of my pricerange. Also there is a hint that they are more fragile than others (certainly than a Casta) which worries me, given that Perth to anywhere is a lot of flying/other transport which might knock the box around. Your friend with 2 Hyde boxes is in
a fairly elite club! Kay Hickman or Sharon Shannon maybe?
Thanks for your kind advice, and if anything else comes to mind. . .
- Martin
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Don Roberts
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Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
You are right in your assumption, folkiekay. Her latest box is a three reed that I haven't seen.
I tooted around on her other Hyde and also on her Castignari Tommy. Both were very nice. If I remember correctly, she had owned the Tommy for some time and it had really been put through the paces but still looked like new.
Good Luck with what ever you choose. It's the shopping that is fun.
I tooted around on her other Hyde and also on her Castignari Tommy. Both were very nice. If I remember correctly, she had owned the Tommy for some time and it had really been put through the paces but still looked like new.
Good Luck with what ever you choose. It's the shopping that is fun.
America Dammit
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StevieJ
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Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
I certainly don't think Castagnaris are rubbish but I do think you are paying a premium for the fancy woodwork, and I find the ornate style of most of their models a little too much for my taste.
The bass register on the Keanebox must be to remove the thirds. Never heard of a stop that could "convert major to minor" and if one did, having all minor basses would be about as useless as having all major ones, or more so!
A man I know with many decades of experience recently bought a Beltuna and he thinks it is equal to Castagnaris in the quality department.
Another good choice would be a Serenellini 233 with TAM reeds - a plainer-looking item, but a very robust and well-made instrument with a powerful sound and first-class internal mechanics. Much cheaper than a Castagnari and cheaper and better-made than a Saltarelle Nuage. I wrote a review of the 233's big brother, the 273, HERE.
It's true that a heavier box stays put on your knee more easily, but the more you play the easier it is to keep any kind of box where you want it, even a small one.
I went from a 2-voice box to the Serenellini (3 voices, 12 basses) and have played it for the past four years, but I've decided that I like smaller boxes better for playing and carrying comfort and have downsized back to a 2-voice. It's nice to have the extra punch of 3 voices MMM (don't much care for the low-reed sound), but 2 voices tuned just right have a lovely lonesome quality.
Shopping is fun, Don? Hmm. I've now bought several quality accordions unseen as it were, and I think it's an awful business. It's daft really shelling out a few thousand bucks on an instrument that you haven't tried - and when you haven't even been able to try one of the same model in a shop. On every new box I've bought I've had to have the tuning adjusted to my taste. Makers will give you what they call "swing" or "tremolo americano" or whatever, but it's very possible that what they mean by these terms is not what others mean, or what you understand by them. None of them seem to give you a chance to specify exactly what you want in terms of beats per second, or cents up and down the scale. It's a crapshoot.
I've now taken a vow that the only accordions I'll buy in future are old Hohners and then get them tweaked!
The bass register on the Keanebox must be to remove the thirds. Never heard of a stop that could "convert major to minor" and if one did, having all minor basses would be about as useless as having all major ones, or more so!
A man I know with many decades of experience recently bought a Beltuna and he thinks it is equal to Castagnaris in the quality department.
Another good choice would be a Serenellini 233 with TAM reeds - a plainer-looking item, but a very robust and well-made instrument with a powerful sound and first-class internal mechanics. Much cheaper than a Castagnari and cheaper and better-made than a Saltarelle Nuage. I wrote a review of the 233's big brother, the 273, HERE.
It's true that a heavier box stays put on your knee more easily, but the more you play the easier it is to keep any kind of box where you want it, even a small one.
I went from a 2-voice box to the Serenellini (3 voices, 12 basses) and have played it for the past four years, but I've decided that I like smaller boxes better for playing and carrying comfort and have downsized back to a 2-voice. It's nice to have the extra punch of 3 voices MMM (don't much care for the low-reed sound), but 2 voices tuned just right have a lovely lonesome quality.
Shopping is fun, Don? Hmm. I've now bought several quality accordions unseen as it were, and I think it's an awful business. It's daft really shelling out a few thousand bucks on an instrument that you haven't tried - and when you haven't even been able to try one of the same model in a shop. On every new box I've bought I've had to have the tuning adjusted to my taste. Makers will give you what they call "swing" or "tremolo americano" or whatever, but it's very possible that what they mean by these terms is not what others mean, or what you understand by them. None of them seem to give you a chance to specify exactly what you want in terms of beats per second, or cents up and down the scale. It's a crapshoot.
I've now taken a vow that the only accordions I'll buy in future are old Hohners and then get them tweaked!
Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
thanks StevieJ - that throws a spanner in the rush towards a Castagnari! Good thing, as I'm an obsessive researcher and would feel stupid is I didn't look round more. I'm going to talk to John Castiglione soon - hope he has access to the Serenellinis as well, as I don't really fancy dealing with the Italian factory (or did you find them easy? Castagnari isn't that great at emails).
I don't mind too much about the look of the box. Sturdiness (for travel through airports as well as local and in session pubs) and tone (including some flexibility with registers) is more important. Availability as well. That said, I've read your review of the Serenellini 273 (cheers!) and those cosmetic and minor mechanical issues would really annoy me. I'm seriously isolated from expertise with these boxes and would have to bodge it up myself.
Very interesting stuff about your progression from 2voice to 3 and then back. I'm still starting out so I'm quite happy to walk that path and get to know what I really want longterm.
Offtopic - I recently bought a 1930s DoubleRay Deluxe v cheap, thinking it was a B/C that needed some reeds cleaned. Opened it to find it had been retuned to D/D# and the middle bank of reeds were taped up. Don't know what to do with it now - would like tomake it a B/C. the reeds sound v sweet. Could be my first dodgy attempt at moving and reseating reeds. . .I'll probably start another topic eventually about this!
Anyway - thanks again for your help Steve. This process is bloody nervewracking. And I want the new box on my knee NOW.
I don't mind too much about the look of the box. Sturdiness (for travel through airports as well as local and in session pubs) and tone (including some flexibility with registers) is more important. Availability as well. That said, I've read your review of the Serenellini 273 (cheers!) and those cosmetic and minor mechanical issues would really annoy me. I'm seriously isolated from expertise with these boxes and would have to bodge it up myself.
Very interesting stuff about your progression from 2voice to 3 and then back. I'm still starting out so I'm quite happy to walk that path and get to know what I really want longterm.
Offtopic - I recently bought a 1930s DoubleRay Deluxe v cheap, thinking it was a B/C that needed some reeds cleaned. Opened it to find it had been retuned to D/D# and the middle bank of reeds were taped up. Don't know what to do with it now - would like tomake it a B/C. the reeds sound v sweet. Could be my first dodgy attempt at moving and reseating reeds. . .I'll probably start another topic eventually about this!
Anyway - thanks again for your help Steve. This process is bloody nervewracking. And I want the new box on my knee NOW.
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StevieJ
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Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
Hi Martin
The lady at Serenellini who does the English correspondence, Donatella, always answers emails within a few days (not sure she works every day). The cosmetic blemishes really were minor, btw. Nobody else has ever noticed them and I no longer do. If you decide to go for a Serenellini, unless they have an Aussie dealer, I'd order directly from them. You'll get a better price. My experience of dealing with them was very pleasant.
Are you sure your D/D# has been converted from B/C? D/D# was one of the tuning systems in use in the 1930s and I'd be surprised if anyone had retuned a B/C to this obsolete tuning. For one thing it isn't reckoned to be a good idea to retune reeds by more than a semitone. I think you'll find that converting a D/D# to B/C will involve more than moving the reed plates around - the pairing of reeds on the reed plates will be different.
As I'm sure you know D/D# can be used by C#/D players as an Eb box. As a B/C player you could use it as a high F machine! I too have a 1930s 3-voice Hohner that I picked up cheap. This one is in in C/C#, which would make an Eb box for a B/C player! I'm wondering whether to have it converted, to what, and how. One day maybe. For now I just enjoy having a C# box tuned as wet as a platypus' backside.
Cheers
S
The lady at Serenellini who does the English correspondence, Donatella, always answers emails within a few days (not sure she works every day). The cosmetic blemishes really were minor, btw. Nobody else has ever noticed them and I no longer do. If you decide to go for a Serenellini, unless they have an Aussie dealer, I'd order directly from them. You'll get a better price. My experience of dealing with them was very pleasant.
Are you sure your D/D# has been converted from B/C? D/D# was one of the tuning systems in use in the 1930s and I'd be surprised if anyone had retuned a B/C to this obsolete tuning. For one thing it isn't reckoned to be a good idea to retune reeds by more than a semitone. I think you'll find that converting a D/D# to B/C will involve more than moving the reed plates around - the pairing of reeds on the reed plates will be different.
As I'm sure you know D/D# can be used by C#/D players as an Eb box. As a B/C player you could use it as a high F machine! I too have a 1930s 3-voice Hohner that I picked up cheap. This one is in in C/C#, which would make an Eb box for a B/C player! I'm wondering whether to have it converted, to what, and how. One day maybe. For now I just enjoy having a C# box tuned as wet as a platypus' backside.
Cheers
S
Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
Steve
Yep - Donatella replied on the very same day, and with good English too. She suggested the 273 if I wanted 12 basses (which does attract me). I'm going to give John Castiglione a call - have you ever dealt with him? He seems to think (in a brief email) that Beltunas and Castas are a whole level above the Serenellinis. He seems very keen for the business, and has contacts in Italy, so I'll see what happens.
Re the Hohner - those platypuses ARE wet-#rsed little b#stards and no mistake! Of course we shoot the vermin on sight over here as they only belong in that giant cess-pool that is the "Eastern States".
There was a pencilled note inside the Doubleray giving the date of conversion to D/D# (early 1980s) otherwise I'd have no idea. I thought all of the Blackdots (which this is) were B/C for the Irish market, except for the rare C#/D version. I don't know how the retune was done - I can't see excessive scratching on the reeds. Maybe they decided to leave out the middle bank because they couldn't match them all up? I know it's kind of doomed, but do you think it would be an interesting project trying to convert it back to B/C? If the reed are still close to original, there should be matching pairs? I might get a sweet little 2-voice box out of it at least.
Cheers
Martin
Yep - Donatella replied on the very same day, and with good English too. She suggested the 273 if I wanted 12 basses (which does attract me). I'm going to give John Castiglione a call - have you ever dealt with him? He seems to think (in a brief email) that Beltunas and Castas are a whole level above the Serenellinis. He seems very keen for the business, and has contacts in Italy, so I'll see what happens.
Re the Hohner - those platypuses ARE wet-#rsed little b#stards and no mistake! Of course we shoot the vermin on sight over here as they only belong in that giant cess-pool that is the "Eastern States".
There was a pencilled note inside the Doubleray giving the date of conversion to D/D# (early 1980s) otherwise I'd have no idea. I thought all of the Blackdots (which this is) were B/C for the Irish market, except for the rare C#/D version. I don't know how the retune was done - I can't see excessive scratching on the reeds. Maybe they decided to leave out the middle bank because they couldn't match them all up? I know it's kind of doomed, but do you think it would be an interesting project trying to convert it back to B/C? If the reed are still close to original, there should be matching pairs? I might get a sweet little 2-voice box out of it at least.
Cheers
Martin
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StevieJ
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Re: Advice needed on buying Castagnari Dinn or Kriss box
Say buongiorno to Donatella from me! 12 basses - nice. Pretty much essential for C#/D if you want to use the basses much. But there is a weight difference - 3.8 kg for the 233 vs. 4.4 for the 273. And a centimetre or two in size. One thing I wish mine had had, and which they might be happy to do for you, is configure the bass register so that the default position is "thirds out". That would mean you don't have to pull the lever up every time!
I can't compare the quality of the Serenellinis with Castas and Beltunas. But my tuner (who has had a lot of Castas through his workshop and has owned a few himself) seems to think that the internals/mechanicals of the Serenellini - the lever mechanisms in particular - are about as good as anything. He thought the TAM reeds were very good too. His comment after he first gave it a once-over: take this box away and play it hard, because it is built to take anything you can throw at it. (He plays about 3 times as loud as I do.)
Between Castagnari and Beltuna, I'd be inclined to take a punt on the latter based on price, reports from people whose opinion I respect, and because I'm not mad about the rococo look of the Castagnaris.
Converting the Hohner is indeed a nice project. You might be able to find complete sets of reeds from a junk box, or lying around in some repairman's workshop. It wouldn't be all that expensive to get a complete new set from Hohner, actually, although the older reeds (is it T or H, I can't remember which are the old and which the new) are said to have a softer, sweeter sound. The man who makes Irish Dancemaster boxes in Florida specializes in retro-fitting Hohners with Italian reeds. If you went that route, maybe you wouldn't need to shell out thousands for an Italian job at all!
I can't compare the quality of the Serenellinis with Castas and Beltunas. But my tuner (who has had a lot of Castas through his workshop and has owned a few himself) seems to think that the internals/mechanicals of the Serenellini - the lever mechanisms in particular - are about as good as anything. He thought the TAM reeds were very good too. His comment after he first gave it a once-over: take this box away and play it hard, because it is built to take anything you can throw at it. (He plays about 3 times as loud as I do.)
Between Castagnari and Beltuna, I'd be inclined to take a punt on the latter based on price, reports from people whose opinion I respect, and because I'm not mad about the rococo look of the Castagnaris.
Converting the Hohner is indeed a nice project. You might be able to find complete sets of reeds from a junk box, or lying around in some repairman's workshop. It wouldn't be all that expensive to get a complete new set from Hohner, actually, although the older reeds (is it T or H, I can't remember which are the old and which the new) are said to have a softer, sweeter sound. The man who makes Irish Dancemaster boxes in Florida specializes in retro-fitting Hohners with Italian reeds. If you went that route, maybe you wouldn't need to shell out thousands for an Italian job at all!