Feedback Problems (Again)

[projektio28]

Hey everyone,

In the continuing saga of the accordionist in an Irish rock band, I have run into issues again with feedback on my newest accordion. I am currently using a Universal piano accordion built in the 70s, which came with three piezo pickups on the treble side and one piezo on the bass side.

The first issue I had was boosting the signal loud enough to go through my Roland KC350 keyboard amp. Since this was not working well, I bought a Fishman Preamp to boost the signal and this helped tremendously. However, as I increase the volume on either the amp, preamp or the accordion itself, I am getting really bad feedback.

I need to be able to move around when I am playing, so standing in front of an SM57 is not an option. I tried that in the beginning when I first joined the band, and it sucked.

Is it possible that by using some sort of small, clip-on microphone like a Sennheiser, I would be able to avoid this issue? This option from K&K Sound looks great (not sure I am happy with the price): http://www.kksound.com/accordion.html

What on earth do blues/rock/bluegrass accordionists use to amplify when they're playing alongside electric guitar and bass? I wish I had a mailing address from James Fearnley so I could write him a letter...

As always, any advice is appreciated!

Matt

[projektio28]

A brief update... I have managed to stem some of the feedback issues by installing some 1" thick pieces of acoustic foam over the 3 treble pickups. This does not make the problem entirely go away, but I was able to crank the volume a lot louder than ever before.

One other question I do have is, where can I buy this gray "acoustic" foam which is really nothing more than urethene packing foam? If you ever buy this stuff from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, I can guarantee you are getting ripped off. I've received products before that were packed in this stuff and I can't believe it is as expensive as they claim. There has to be a cheaper source from the packing standpoint...

Matt

[Dain]

I'm sorry for interruption, but i'm having kinda the same problem.
I have a small acoustic accordion, and i'm playing it in a full r'n'r/punk band (along the two electric and one bass guitar and the full set of drums).
So far i had to kiss the SM58 and it sucks, because i have to stand still and even then, i can barely be heard. That's why our band sought a (cheap) way to sound up our accordion. For the first time i saw the idea of pieso pick-ups and it's really smart. They aren't really microphones, right? You need an additional amp (or preamp) for them?

As for the feedback...you could either isolate the interior casing of the instrument, and put the pickups inside, or maybe (but i don't know how) electronically attenuate that frequency where the feedback occurs.

[projektio28]

I'm sorry for interruption, but i'm having kinda the same problem.
I have a small acoustic accordion, and i'm playing it in a full r'n'r/punk band (along the two electric and one bass guitar and the full set of drums).
So far i had to kiss the SM58 and it sucks, because i have to stand still and even then, i can barely be heard. That's why our band sought a (cheap) way to sound up our accordion. For the first time i saw the idea of pieso pick-ups and it's really smart. They aren't really microphones, right? You need an additional amp (or preamp) for them?

As for the feedback...you could either isolate the interior casing of the instrument, and put the pickups inside, or maybe (but i don't know how) electronically attenuate that frequency where the feedback occurs.

Hey Dain, thanks for replying back. Sorry you are encountering the same problem.

I have successfully been able to use this preamp (http://www.fishman.com/products/details.asp?id=42) to boost my accordion's sound to the level where it can be heard within the mix of the rock band. I run this into a Roland KC350 keyboard amp.

The piezo pickups do a decent job of picking up the sound. As far as placement goes, on my German 1930s accordion they are placed on the inside of the bellows and taped/velcro-ed to a reed block. On the newer Italian 1970s accordion the three treble pickups I have been referring to are underneath the front panel which contains two volume and two tone knobs. The bass pickup is currently broken on this one, so I will need to get it fixed at my local shop.

I hope that your guitarist and bassist are as understanding as mine. They do not play turned all the way up, because they know they would drown out me, and the banjo and mandolin players. So I hope your bandmates can adjust their levels too so that you don't have to boost to the point of feedback.

You are correct about need the preamp/amp setup for the pickups. It is the only real way to get a clear signal out of them And as for EQ, yes, this definitely helps to test which frequencies are the main issue, although I have found that even if I cut the highs on my EQ, then I get low bass feedback. The accordion box itself acts like a giant resonator/reservoir for the feedback. I think the more material I can place on top of the pickups internally, the better. Of course you would not want to use too much so as to block out the signal you are attempting to boost!

I hope my information helps you and others stuck in our similar situation!

Matt

[Dain]

Thanks for the reply!

Now, I read some more about the subject, and the most people here are using small clip-on mics with super cardioid pattern.
But, the kind of music they are playing is that accordion is the lead instrument, and the rest of the band is in background, which doesn't apply to this what we're playing.
So i guess the piezo pickup is the right deal.

So you said that on one of your instruments, the piezo is on the bellows side of the treble box? That could be tricky as it probably picks up the bass side as well, (bellows being a giant tunnel).
On the other side, on your other accordion there is a piezo underneath the grill, if i'm properly understanding, right? There is no remedy except to try and insulate the interior of the box with whatever you can, as you said. I was thinking to put a layer of sponge or some other insulating material right beneath my grill. I guess that would help.

[projektio28]

Thanks for the reply!

Now, I read some more about the subject, and the most people here are using small clip-on mics with super cardioid pattern.
But, the kind of music they are playing is that accordion is the lead instrument, and the rest of the band is in background, which doesn't apply to this what we're playing.
So i guess the piezo pickup is the right deal.

So you said that on one of your instruments, the piezo is on the bellows side of the treble box? That could be tricky as it probably picks up the bass side as well, (bellows being a giant tunnel).
On the other side, on your other accordion there is a piezo underneath the grill, if i'm properly understanding, right? There is no remedy except to try and insulate the interior of the box with whatever you can, as you said. I was thinking to put a layer of sponge or some other insulating material right beneath my grill. I guess that would help.

Yes, I believe that using the clip-on mics is great if you are in an acoustic band, but not for rock/punk music. I know that James Fearnley from the Pogues was using accordions with internal pickups for a time, my guess is he still does.

As for the piezo inside the bellows section, yes, that is what I meant. In fact having the two piezo pickups on the inside of the bellows is handy for my german accordion since it can get the sound from both the treble AND bass reed blocks. You are correct about me needing to insulate it. I think if I can find more of this "acoustic" foam from a shipping/packing company that is inexpensive, I should be able to fix some of the feedback problems with that particular accordion. Yes, I would describe this material as being similar to a sponge. Heck, maybe an actual sponge would work? It's worth experimenting with...

As for my other accordion with the pickups located under the grill, those only pickup the treble side, while a single wire goes internally through the bellows to the other side near the bass reed blocks, and a single pickup is installed there for the bass. I need to get a brand new bass pickup installed since the old one died not long after I bought the accordion.

Matt

[projektio28]

Another brief update to my saga. As of yesterday, I sold my Roland KC350 keyboard amp. It turns out that it was probably causing a lot more of the problems with my feedback than anything else.

I am now using a Vox AC30 and after my gig last night, I had plenty of volume, plenty of headroom and none of the feedback issues with my Hohner. I am assuming once I get my Universal accordion back from the shop, that it will be working beautifully with the Vox too.

Hope this is useful to someone!

Matt

[Dain]

So it was the amp?
Oh the goddamn electronics gremlins, it's always the one you least suspect.

Now, i must ask you this: have you ever plugged your accordion cable to a electric guitar processor or a pedal?
I'm wondering would you get some new and interesting effects or a pile of crap?

[projektio28]

So it was the amp?
Oh the goddamn electronics gremlins, it's always the one you least suspect.

Now, i must ask you this: have you ever plugged your accordion cable to a electric guitar processor or a pedal?
I'm wondering would you get some new and interesting effects or a pile of crap?

Yeah, it turns out that both my accordions can be cranked up pretty loud and clean on the AC30. Zero feedback issues.

As for guitar processor, my wife owns a Line 6 Pod XT Live pedalboard and I have run my Universal accordion through it before. It sounds okay for some of the effects, but to be honest the best two effects to use are reverb or delay. My AC30 guitar amp has built-in reverb and tremolo and both effects are not bad with the accordion. Admittedly, tremolo is rather pointless if you have a musette tuned accordion!

Matt

[Dain]

Does it work on non-musette tuned ones?
That would mean heaps to me, because i don't have either tremolo or musette register combo, and i would love to have them. And musette tuning here is not very popular, and rather expensive.

[projektio28]

Does it work on non-musette tuned ones?
That would mean heaps to me, because i don't have either tremolo or musette register combo, and i would love to have them. And musette tuning here is not very popular, and rather expensive.

Yes, the tremolo effect from an amp or guitar effects processor would work on non-musette accordions, for the simple reason that anything going into the audio input will have the effect applied to it, and then you'll hear it on the audio output.

Matt