We all hate these, but...considering concertina

[Danner]

Hi all,
I'm an Irish flute and whistle player, and I've been considering starting concertina over the summer. I'm not sure if I can afford a decent starting instrument. I know that the $200-300 concertinas are not worth buying. Is there, however, something in the $500-700 range that's a solid instrument? I play ITM, as I've said, so I think my best bet would be a 30(ish) key anglo.

(I'm not worrying too much about tutorials at the moment...I live in Boston during the school year and near Chicago during the summer, so I'm around plenty of ITM resources. I just want to know if it's financially possible for me to start concertina.)

Thank you very much for putting up with one of these newbe questions and giving any responses.

[Gaping_Lotus]

I was in a similar situation to you about a year ago.

I picked up a Rochelle, as it's the only thing in that range that seems to be playable. It isn't pretty, but it plays quite well and doesn't sound half bad either. I think the prices have gone up a little, but you can find used ones around. Mine has gotten much more playable in the last few months, so a used one might be even better than a new one.

If I find a used Edgley some time soon, mine will be up for grabs on here.

You could do quite well on a 20 button Lachenal, if it's a good one, as a good deal of tunes don't use the C# or other accidentals. They can sometimes be found for under $1000, but they can be a bit clackety and problematic. I'd say get a Rochelle and save your nickels for a better hybrid.

[dwinterfield]

Pretty much the only playable instruments are the Rochelle or a re-worked new Stagi from Button Box in Sunderland MA. Check their very good web site. A 20 button really won't work for ITM. If you play for a year you'll be working hard to figure out how to buy a hybrid for $1500-$2000.

[avanutria]

Have you had a chance to play one locally? If you have and you like it, I'd really recommend trying to save up to start on a really good one. That's what I did, and it saves the cost of upgrading from a starter later on.

I started on an Edgley and wasn't that impressed to be honest, but to be fair it was one of his earlier instruments and I'm sure he's improved procedures by now. I'm on the list for a Dipper at the moment

If saving up isn't an option, I too have heard good things about the Rochelle, but have never seen one.

[Gaping_Lotus]

I disagree about the common statement about 20 buttons, especially if you play another instrument. There's a good deal of great tunes which can be played on a 20 button. You can play almost anything in Mary McNamara, Kitty Hayes or Mrs Crotty's repertoire. Nothing at all wrong with playing D tunes along the row, and playing tunes in cross-row fingering which don't have C# or other accidentals. The Noel Hill clones might disagree, but I think a good 20 button is far better than a reworked Stagi. Not as good to play as a modern hybrid, but will actually sound like a concertina.

[Fergus]

I've played a Rochelle, a Stagi and my nowadays box, a Morse - 2nd hand, 1600 $ -. No comparisons...

A good concertina worths every penny you put into it. So, IMHO, saving up IS the only option, if you want to improve.

Looking forward some years to have a Suttner! - 4 years waiting list, I reckon I'll have enough time to save the money...-.

Cheers,

Fer

[Danner]

Thanks for the responses all! I really appreciate the advice. Getting a 20-button would not be an option, considering the crowd with whom I play. (Already as a whistler I have a disadvantage in terms of available keys...) The Button Box sells Rochelles and offers a purchase price refund for them if you trade them in for a Morse later down the line. I'm thinking that might be a good line for me to follow because I wouldn't actually loose anything (other than patience maybe) by starting out with something cheaper and then upgrading. I'll just have to see where my finances are in the upcoming weeks.

I'm still open to any further suggestions though, and thanks again.

[Gaping_Lotus]

Yes their program is very good. And if you decide on an instrument other than a Morse (there are many options, each with its advantage), they usually sell on the forums for pretty close to what they go for new.

[Azalin]

I personally really like my Edgley. I played it for 4-5 years before I got my Dipper. I personally think you should go with a hybrid instead of a "bottom of the line" "real" concertina. The sound won't be as good, but at least it will be easy to play and will have a closer "feel" and the same fingering as a top of the line one whenever you switch.

I also agree a 20 buttons isn't an option for you if you are serious about learning the instrument cross row, and not limiting yourself to a few keys. It's always nice to be able to play D with the C# and G minor tunes...

I would not start on a Rochelle or equivalent, but that's just me.

[scheky]

I'm going to step in here with both guns blazing.

A 20 button will do absolutely fine in most cases for a starter instrument. Now, it won't if you plan on playing across the rows, but Noel Hill is not the only person playing and he doesn't have the only method. Most of the old folks played along the rows for the most part and I quite like how they sound. Heck, I believe Frank Edgley plays along the G row as a home row (from his tutor and listening to him) and he's a fine player.

Remember that in most cases, ITM tunes use only F#. Sure, having a C# opens up quite a few more tunes (between them I think you sit at 99%) and then you get the odd keys for the rest, but you can easily play quite a few tunes with just a 20 button. If you already play another instrument, you can switch for the ones that require a C#.

That said, I do think a 30 button is a better choice, but in my opinion, a 20 button Lach is equal to a 30 button Stagi (please say the reworked ones) or Rochelle. I think the 30 Button Hybrids are better, but that wasn't in the given price range.

I know it's all the rage to look at Noel's method and feel it's the only way to play. He's a great player and his method is sound (and follows as nice and logical). However, there are some folks who actually LIKE the more bouncy nature of playing in the rows. They won't play as fast as Noel, or have as many ornaments bouncing out of their box, but I'm growing more and more of the opinion that perhaps that's not a bad thing after all.

[daiv]

I'm going to step in here with both guns blazing.

A 20 button will do absolutely fine in most cases for a starter instrument. Now, it won't if you plan on playing across the rows, but Noel Hill is not the only person playing and he doesn't have the only method. Most of the old folks played along the rows for the most part and I quite like how they sound. Heck, I believe Frank Edgley plays along the G row as a home row (from his tutor and listening to him) and he's a fine player.

Remember that in most cases, ITM tunes use only F#. Sure, having a C# opens up quite a few more tunes (between them I think you sit at 99%) and then you get the odd keys for the rest, but you can easily play quite a few tunes with just a 20 button. If you already play another instrument, you can switch for the ones that require a C#.

That said, I do think a 30 button is a better choice, but in my opinion, a 20 button Lach is equal to a 30 button Stagi (please say the reworked ones) or Rochelle. I think the 30 Button Hybrids are better, but that wasn't in the given price range.

I know it's all the rage to look at Noel's method and feel it's the only way to play. He's a great player and his method is sound (and follows as nice and logical). However, there are some folks who actually LIKE the more bouncy nature of playing in the rows. They won't play as fast as Noel, or have as many ornaments bouncing out of their box, but I'm growing more and more of the opinion that perhaps that's not a bad thing after all.

i think you have it a bit wrong. along the rows does not mean that one does not use the other rows. frank edgley surely uses c#! you need that one button to play in D, and D is a very common key. it is not worth your time to play in sessions if you cannot play in D.

technically, frank's style (and that of other predominant "along the rows" style) does not have very much in common with the old style used to play along the rows on a 20 button. many people who played along the rows on twenty buttons did just that. they played in C and G, and that's about it. also, frank edgley and others' style is very much across the row, strictly speaking. the main difference is that going up the scale starting on low D, noel starts in the C row and switches to the G row for c, and in the modern "along the rows" style, they start in the C row and switch to the G row for f#.

so, technically speaking, the along the rows and cross the rows camps are both "across the rows." the difference is that in noel and other "across the rows" styles, you cross earlier, and more often. there are very few players nowadays in irish music that get even close to staying in only one row at a time.

as an aside, my friend jon and i have discussed making a D/G (not the same as a G/D) layout for the anglo which actually would be across the rows, meaning while you play in D you are in the D row (current C row), and while you play in G, you are in the G row. now THAT would be across the rows.

[Azalin]

Remember that in most cases, ITM tunes use only F#.

That's the strangest thing I heard so far in my relatively short ITM life. I often heard this thing about C# not being a requirement, but to my ears C# is very, very important, as important as the other notes... There are many tunes in D and A major (and E dorian?) I could never picture without the C#. So it would be nice if you could explain what you mean by this.

Try to play Margaret's Waltz on a 20 buttons... you won't have your C# or G#, what are you going to do?

[Gaping_Lotus]

Since when is Irish music only about playing in sessions? I've gotten plenty of enjoyment playing tunes both along the rows in C (strictly along the rows, a la Ellen O'Dwyer) and in the more modern "along the rows" style much like Dympna O'Sullivan and Mary MacNamara. I can, and just did, sit for a good hour and play tunes without needing the C#. Not that I have anything against a 30 button, and my next instrument will be a 30 button so that I can work on D tunes more. But, the point has to be made that Noel isn't the be-all end-all of concertina music. As technically skilled as he is, theres a lot more music in Mrs. Crotty than in Mr. Hill, and I don't hear a single C# in any of her recordings. Besides, C flutes and pipes sound nicer.

[Azalin]

Since when is Irish music only about playing in sessions? I've gotten plenty of enjoyment playing tunes both along the rows in C (strictly along the rows, a la Ellen O'Dwyer) and in the more modern "along the rows" style much like Dympna O'Sullivan and Mary MacNamara. I can, and just did, sit for a good hour and play tunes without needing the C#. Not that I have anything against a 30 button, and my next instrument will be a 30 button so that I can work on D tunes more. But, the point has to be made that Noel isn't the be-all end-all of concertina music. As technically skilled as he is, theres a lot more music in Mrs. Crotty than in Mr. Hill, and I don't hear a single C# in any of her recordings. Besides, C flutes and pipes sound nicer.

I agree with you here, but the actual issue here isn't about the C#, it's if you want to learn tunes transposed so that you won't need the accidentals anyway or if you want to learn the more standard session versions.

I still think there's nothing wrong with working at unlocking the potential of your instrument as much as you can, and then making conscious choices on how you're going to play the tunes with a phrasing you like, compared to playing a certain way because you don't know any other ways. I'm not a big fan of Noel Hill's style, but I will still go at his camp this summer because I think he knows how to reach very far at the concertina's potential, and I feel it will give me 'weapons' I can use if I want to, when I want to.

Sadly, I feel like most people who take workshops with Noel Hill puts emphasis on improving their technique over making interesting music, but that's a very subjective opinion.

[Gaping_Lotus]

Yes, I completely agree with you. What I like most about playing the concertina versus the fiddle is working out the best fingerings to get the phrasing the way I want, I guess much like working on bowings. Definitely there is much that can be learned from Noel. I just disagree with the opinions that I always hear that any deviation from Noel's fingering is wrong, or that if you can't afford a top notch instrument that you can't play Irish music. That's the kind of mindset that leads to all these lightning fast beginners with no rhythm, no pulse and no feeling in the music. I started on a 20 button who-knows-what octave reeded concertina, and I can still get lovely music out of it. Slow music, by any standard, but I'd take it any day over someone with ornamentation on every note and no sense of melody or rhythm, which I hear too much, on every instrument.