We all hate these, but...considering concertina

[Azalin]

Slow music, by any standard, but I'd take it any day over someone with ornamentation on every note and no sense of melody or rhythm, which I hear too much, on every instrument.

Same here, I think it's a bit sad. More and more I avoid sessions because I always feel they're pushing me somewhere I don't want to go. Loud, fast, flashy... and I find myself struggling to get in a game I don't really want to play anyway.

[scheky]

Really? Of all the tunes I know, the majority of them can be played on a G Diatonic instrument (meaning only an F#). After that, you need the C# to play the vast majority of the rest (combined, that reaches about 99%). I just checked a random sampling from the most popular tunes at The Session and it holds true with this theory.

The beginner could learn tunes for the next decade and never need a C#, still learning tunes played at sessions. Could they play every tune? No...but they would have more than enough for a beginner to work on, which IS what this post was centered on. I'm certainly not advocating that the user either transposes every tune or attempts to play a C-nat in place of a C#, but that there are a HUGE AND VAST number of session tunes that DO NOT REQUIRE THIS NOTE. Why the heck couldn't a beginner start on these?

I'm not saying that going cross-row is bad in any way. In fact, it's great. It gets you past the points where you seem to be fighting with the instrument to make a phrase work. It's a wonderful skill to learn, and should be learned. However, that doesn't mean that an instrument that doesn't have the extra row of accidentals is somehow unfit for the music. That type of thinking is simply wrong in every way.

As I said, I knew that my post would stir up some trouble.

[scheky]

Slow music, by any standard, but I'd take it any day over someone with ornamentation on every note and no sense of melody or rhythm, which I hear too much, on every instrument.

Same here, I think it's a bit sad. More and more I avoid sessions because I always feel they're pushing me somewhere I don't want to go. Loud, fast, flashy... and I find myself struggling to get in a game I don't really want to play anyway.

I agree entirely. Everything is too centered on speed and flash these days. The actual feel of the music seems to be lost.

[Tootler]

[quote="Azalin"

Try to play Margaret's Waltz on a 20 buttons... you won't have your C# or G#, what are you going to do?[/quote]

Where I live (NE England), Margaret's waltz is as likely to be played in G as it is in A. In G you can play it on a 20 button no problem. But then I don't play Irish anyway.

In some ways the 20 button vs. 30 button is about what you want out of your instrument. For some people, the challenge is making the most of a limited instrument, which is one aspect of traditional music. It is often possible to leave out notes that are missing from your instrument, especially if they are not in important places - like in quaver runs. If you are playing in a session, the fiddle players will always fill in anyway.

OTOH, a 30 button does give more flexibility and many English players go for even more buttons - 38 buttons are common to allow them to play accompanying chords on either push or pull. As I say it depends what you are after.

Geoff

[daiv]

Since when is Irish music only about playing in sessions? I've gotten plenty of enjoyment playing tunes both along the rows in C (strictly along the rows, a la Ellen O'Dwyer) and in the more modern "along the rows" style much like Dympna O'Sullivan and Mary MacNamara. I can, and just did, sit for a good hour and play tunes without needing the C#. Not that I have anything against a 30 button, and my next instrument will be a 30 button so that I can work on D tunes more. But, the point has to be made that Noel isn't the be-all end-all of concertina music. As technically skilled as he is, theres a lot more music in Mrs. Crotty than in Mr. Hill, and I don't hear a single C# in any of her recordings. Besides, C flutes and pipes sound nicer.

well, the original poster asked about playing in sessions in particular, so, that's where the session playing becomes relevant...

there's plenty of music in noel hill. you dont have to like it, but please, spend a week or two listening to him play live several times a day, and tell me if he hasnt any music in him. mr hill has nothing but respect for mrs crotty and all of the old players. listening to him talk about the day she died you would think he had actually met her.

saying he doesnt have as much music in him as mrs crotty would be like saying that matt molloy doesnt have as much music in him as micho russel. it's a strange statement to make, and completely false. it is a reverse elitism... it is a reactionary mindset.

noel hill lives, breathes, and eats the music. the reason i think he is so good is because he is so interested in the playing of other musicians, and so very respectful of the music and the people who have preserved it and passed it onto us. he loves to speak of all the old musicians, and he worked extensively with tony mcmahon and countless others to record and preserve the music with the rte. when he speaks of old players who never were recorded, he speaks of it as if it is a personal loss.

it is through noel hill that i learned to listen closely to the old players. i figured if he goes on and on about willie clancy, seamus ennis, mrs. crotty and all the rest, that there must be something in their playing. and sure enough, there is.

[daiv]

Slow music, by any standard, but I'd take it any day over someone with ornamentation on every note and no sense of melody or rhythm, which I hear too much, on every instrument.

Same here, I think it's a bit sad. More and more I avoid sessions because I always feel they're pushing me somewhere I don't want to go. Loud, fast, flashy... and I find myself struggling to get in a game I don't really want to play anyway.

I agree entirely. Everything is too centered on speed and flash these days. The actual feel of the music seems to be lost.

i dont know. i brought this up with my grandmother, and she came up with a good point. she told me it's cyclical. she said when she was playing, my great grandmonther told her that they were playing too slow. then, when my uncle was playing, my grandma thought he was playing too fast. now, the cool thing to do is to play slow, a la kitty lie over. sometimes i listen to old ceili band recordings and wonder what everyone is talking about in regards to the "modern" obsession with speed.

i think slow is definitely good, but fast is good as well.

[daiv]

Yes, I completely agree with you. What I like most about playing the concertina versus the fiddle is working out the best fingerings to get the phrasing the way I want, I guess much like working on bowings. Definitely there is much that can be learned from Noel. I just disagree with the opinions that I always hear that any deviation from Noel's fingering is wrong, or that if you can't afford a top notch instrument that you can't play Irish music.

i dont think that noel would say that deviations from his system are wrong. in fact, he has taught us to play certain tunes ENTIRELY in the C row, and wouldnt let us cross over into the G row, forcing us to use ring finger a on the right hand side. there is a way he likes to play, and people pay him good money to teach it, and he does. beyond that, there are even rumors of noel saying "there is no right way to play the concertina."

haha, and i dont know... a chinese or a hohner dont seem to be top notch, :p. i think the idea is that if you only have 20 buttons, it will be difficult to play music with other people, which many people are interested in. 50+ years ago, many musicians DID play in C a lot more than they do now. they also would throw their concertinas in the fire when the broke, too...

[Azalin]

i think slow is definitely good, but fast is good as well.

Well, I don't think it's about good or bad, but about taste... We all have different tastes, but the point was that sessions tend to be on the 'fast', thus not being the ideal place for people who like it slower.

My issue with speed isn't really about speed, I just think in sessions only 10% of people who play really fast can actually play that fast... for most people, it will sound 'rushed', and when you can feel the speed, it's bad. A good player, in control, won't sound 'fast' even if he/she plays fast. I think on the whistle I got enough control to be able to play at speed with control, but with the concertina... well, no matter the speed, I'm not in control!

So yeah there's a bit of different issues here, being mixed up and all

[Gaping_Lotus]

Yeah I just wanted to get all the Noel Hill people stirred up. It was In Knocknagree that first got me interested in the concertina anyhow, and I listen to plenty of Noel Hill. As much as I like his music, I just don't have much desire to play exactly like him, but if it wasn't for him I don't think I'd be listening to as much old stuff as I do.

About speed, it definitely is a perception thing. Some players like our dear Kim Vincent and Patrick Ourceau here in the Toronto area can sound as if they're bopping along at a moderate speed, but when you try to jump in your playing just turns to mush. Its all about controlling the rhythm and emphasis within the tempo, not about how many notes you can play per minute. That's what I love about Mary MacNamara's playing. She puts space where space is required and let's the notes and the tone of the instrument breathe. I tend to play very quickly for dancers, but I love milking the notes the way she does when I'm playing at home with friends or alone. I think it will be many years before I get to dance tempo on the concertina, but that's fine and dandy.

[Caj]

you need that one button to play in D, and D is a very common key. it is not worth your time to play in sessions if you cannot play in D.

Believe it or not, I actually ran some computer simulations to test this.

I was comparing different key-note layouts on concertinas, so I wrote a program that took a MIDI file and figured what notes would be hit and in what sequence. Then I dumped in all of Henrik Norbeck's tune archive, converted to MIDI. The goal was to count the occurrence of certain awkward fingerings, e.g. having to hit two different buttons in succession with the same finger.

While doing this, I also counted the tunes that can be played on 20-button versus 30-button concertinas. I found that a little under half of all the tunes in the archive could be played on 20 buttons alone, and more than half could be played if you substituted just one note, e.g. replacing a passing c# with an e or a rest. In some tunes the C# is too central to the tune to substitute it, but in others it only pops up in a run of notes that is easily fudged out.

The concertina player/seller/repairman/teacher Paul Groff had long insisted that a 20-button is more than good enough for a learner, plays more than enough tunes, and lets you get a pretty-sounding box for a reasonable price. Certainly it's good enough for a session if you also bring a whistle to play the other tunes.

Also, regarding playing "across the rows": whether you play along or across the rows, you aren't using the third row except for the c#.

[scheky]

Exactly what I was getting at. There are definitely tunes that need that C#, but there are plenty enough that don't so as to never get in the way of a beginner.

[Azalin]

Also, regarding playing "across the rows": whether you play along or across the rows, you aren't using the third row except for the c#.

What do you mean? How are you going to play G minor tunes, or some of the great tunes that require Eb? There are phrases where using that C natural on the RH accidental row will be very useful.

There are other tunes than the standard session tunes, and it's nice to be able to play them. I still think that if you're serious about irish music, you'll get a thirty buttons. In workshops and classes, teachers will offen make you use that C#, and just last week-end the teacher taught Mayor Harrison's Fedora, and that G# on the LH accidental row was very useful, and allowed people who had it to actually play along.

[jileha]

Also, regarding playing "across the rows": whether you play along or across the rows, you aren't using the third row except for the c#.

What do you mean? How are you going to play G minor tunes, or some of the great tunes that require Eb? There are phrases where using that C natural on the RH accidental row will be very useful.

There are other tunes than the standard session tunes, and it's nice to be able to play them. I still think that if you're serious about irish music, you'll get a thirty buttons. In workshops and classes, teachers will offen make you use that C#, and just last week-end the teacher taught Mayor Harrison's Fedora, and that G# on the LH accidental row was very useful, and allowed people who had it to actually play along.

Also, if you play chords/accompanying notes/fast triplets etc., you often have to use alternate buttons, including those in the third row. There are probably only few tunes where I don't use buttons from the third row (even without the C#).

If you start out and learn on a 20 button concertina, you narrow your style down quite a bit; it will be much harder to change your style later when you get a 30+ button concertina - if you would even consider doing that (ie. change your style after having played for a while). Flexibility is good! You want to pick the style you like, not the style the concertina dictates you!

The Rochelle would be my recommendation, too.
There is a big difference to the better hybrids (I have a Morse now), but I was also rather impressed with what you can actually do on the Rochelle.

[Azalin]

Well said, I forgot about the triplets. I must admit the only ones I use for triplet on the RH are the C# buttons (I got one on the pull, one on the push) but there are more you can use, I just suck with triplets, for now...

[Trip-]

I'll join in just by saying, same thing is happening to me too: im starting to get interested in a concertina... of course going the usual C/G way wouldn't be as interesting, and I wanted to ask about the D/A instead... same price, might be a good way to start with? Bob Tedrow's one looks great. I'm carefully asking if anyone could note the big differences one would have with a D/A instead of the C/G, or maybe better asked: what one loses and what one gains in a D/A over a C/G? Thanks.