We all hate these, but...considering concertina

[Paul Groff]

(edited to delete)

[Azalin]

Thanks Paul, very informative post. Trip initially asked what one was losing or gaining by playing a D/A. I still believe the D/A isn't a good idea nowadays if you plan on getting lessons/workshops. If you insist on comparing C#/D - B/C to D/A - C/G, then I'd ask you, give me a list of festivals/workshops where you can get workshops on the C#/D, then give me a list where you can get workshops on the D/A. I was pushing it a bit when I compared D/A players to aliens, that's for sure, but I'm not sure it's just a coincidence, and not only because I don't go out much, that I could name 4-5 box players who play the C#/D accordion, but no concertinists who play the D/A. It's not because I have an interest in accordions, believe me.

That being said, if festivals/workshops and easy access to learning material isn't a priority for you, as is playing standard tunes in standard keys with people, then any system has it's advantage I'm sure.

[Paul Groff]

(edited to delete)

[Azalin]

If you don't want to do so, that's your choice. But, can I say respectfully, your advice to Trip- has had a low content of accurate information.

Well, my knowledge on the matter is quite limited and I never suggested otherwise. But with my own experience with workshops/classes and festivals, I am simply glad I took up C/G and would suggest anyone who starts to do the same. I am happy to be able to follow along a teacher like Edel Fox two week-ends ago and not have to disrupt the class by asking her to play my 'other system' instrument, and she can actually correct me/give suggestions on the fly when I was playing along with the class. To this regard, I'm not sure what you call 'low content of accurate information' but my own recent experience as a learner might be closer to the real deal than someone's lifetime experience in the matter. I also never even closely suggested music played on a D/A (or G/D, or anything else) was inferior to music played on a C/G. You seem to come back to the subject a lot, implying that might be the case. I respect your knowledge on the matter and learned a lot from what you wrote, but all I'm saying is that it's harder to find material for the D/A than C/G. If it's inaccurate, then I'm sorry

[Azalin]

Paul, if you deleted your posts because of what I wrote I am very sorry, and even more sorry because your posts were a wealth of good information I would have loved to be able to come back to in the future. If I have offended you in any way, I am sorry, and maybe you could point out how I did so. I am giving my point of view from the eyes and experience of a newcomer, and never meant disrespect.

[Trip-]

Unfortunately, I didn't make it to read Paul's posts.

@Azalin,
I understand what you're suggesting and have to agree that one will have more help with a C/G than another way.
If you know the tune Fisherman's Lilt in keys of C and D, it would be nice to know what difference you feel when playing the same reel in these keys - since it will have a hint on a D/A.
But you don't have to if you don't feel like it

Thanks.

[Martin Milner]

I have checked the C/G layout.
http://www.concertina.net/images/mws_cg_color_note.jpg
I have no idea why they colored only part of the same notes.

They've coloured notes which appear in more than one place.

[Trip-]

Thanks Martin

[Azalin]

If you know the tune Fisherman's Lilt in keys of C and D, it would be nice to know what difference you feel when playing the same reel in these keys - since it will have a hint on a D/A.
But you don't have to if you don't feel like it

I'll check it up over the week-end, I'd be interested in this 'test'. I'm not sure I play the tune as I'm really bad with names. I saw that Paul left his main message in the thread, which is a relief.

[scheky]

I'm going to jump in here again with my 2c on Trip's questions...

D/A is perfectly fine. Heck, to be honest, 99% of all the learning material out there is pure and vapid crap. You have the choice of, from what I've seen, either books/CDs or a tape/dvd, or lastly, the MadForTrad.

For the DvD, you get to watch John Williams (who is a good player, I'm not knocking his playing in this assessment) looking terrified of the camera while playing. It's not real easy to follow what he's doing if you are starting out, and he plays a total of about 6 tunes with no real substance. It's a waste of time and effort in my opinion.

For the MadForTrad, you don't get a lot from it. You can get easily as much from Tradlessons.com or their YouTube videos. All you get really is, aside from a smattering of tunes, the ability to watch somebody play where the view is obscured by their fingers about 70% of the time. Both are great for playing along with when you want to learn a specific tune, as they play them slow enough to really get a handle on them, but that's as far as I'm willing to go with them.

For CDs/Books, you get a few basic tunes and each of the three major books has a differing thing that makes it stand out.

The Levy book is easily the best beginner's book and looking at it, I think if you aren't worried about playing in the same key (i.e. let the auto-transpose work for you) you will get far in this book with no problems regardless of key system. I'm not saying it will be completely without some pain, but you will do ok for the basics from this.

The Bramich book...it's a great book for chords on the C/G and has a nice button layout chart showing a variety of ways to get scales. All in all, where it's an ok reference, it's lacking as a tutor in my opinion and you won't miss it too much.

This leaves Frank Edgley's book for the major ones out there. THIS one is the cream of the crop. It's the only one that goes into ornamentation in any real way, and even that is in a very terse manner. Still, it's worth every penny once you have a handle on what you are doing. If you get far enough to worry about ornaments, it won't matter what keys you are playing in, as you will be comfortable enough on the tina to work that out for yourself.

So, all in all, this long-winded diatribe says a few things.

1. The tutors out there are lacking. This isn't unusual. It's HARD to teach an instrument from a one-sided perspective. None of them will make you great and each has a small bit of info that can help make the whole make sense.

2. MOST of us don't have access to all the workshops Az talks about. That in itself nullifies half of his argument (and that is indeed a sound argument that he poses). If you don't plan on attending a number of workshops to learn, this will never be an issue for you.

3. There are quite a few folks playing concertinas that are not C/G. There are a good number playing D/G's lately, especially those playing English Folk and Morris. These people have all managed to learn to play just fine on those instruments.


All this argument aside, the majority of the people out there play C/G (and I indeed play C/G myself). However, it's all about what you want to do. A 30 key A/D will have all the keys you need, but you will have to work out your own technique to make it all work for you. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many get tied up in their pet system and seem to forget...there are a vast number of ways to play the concertina. None is better than another in a vacuum, but rather, what works for you personally is the best methodology.

All this argument is just silly in my opinion. It's music. Just PLAY.