the need for speed

[ceemonster]

ha, i learned to "when the saints come marching in"....

[StevieJ]

there is a reason most b/c recordings are in a minorish, eminorish, c majorish, g majorish, g minorish. you will hear very little d majorish, a majorish, d minorish on b/c records because though one needs to be able to play these keys since so much seshing is in them, they are not optimal for the b/c layout. the c#/d players also avoid many keys. so give yourself a break if you are hitting the wall with an awkward key. take "jug of punch," usually a d minor tune. i can play this nicely on b/c at about 100, but there is a reason john williams recorded it in e minor on his self-titled cd. the younger paddy o'brien regularly transposes to more b/c friendly keys and so does everybody else.....so......

I'm surprised to learn that D minor isn't B/C friendly. It corresponds to E minor on C#/D which as far as I am concerned is God's gift to press-and-draw box players.

(To find out what D minor is like on C#/D, try some tunes in C minor on B/C... You'll discover what press-and-draw really means!)

On the question of finding a teacher who will show you a complete fingering system... I suppose it is a good idea. I'm happy I haven't worked that way though, probably because having played the music for 30+ years I would have been far too impatient to work on a small number of a tunes at a time for which a teacher had provided me with fingering.

Also, I am sure that the fact that we all have different sized and shaped palms and fingers is going to make a difference to the fingering styles we eventually settle into. So my tendency would be to say, OK so this is how Billy McDamien does this, let's try it and see if it suits me this particular moment in my development. (If it's not the best thing for me now, I'll remember it and try it again a bit later.)

What really helped me were some general ideas of how to approach fingering and a few specific things to work on that I got early on from a good player. And work on them I did, very intensively, for several years - in fact I am still working on them. This suited me because since I had to work on putting these principles into practice, the style I have ended up with feels like my own learning and insights, even if the seeds were planted by someone else (the blessings of Joe Cooley be upon him).

[Liam]

I know quite late... but I would second the recommendation for Paddy O'Brien if you can get him to teach you. He is a wonderful player and also, on the few occasions I have had to meet him, seems to be a very nice guy.

Before I switched to Anglo, I played B/C for a couple of years. Finding the best way to finger the tune is key. Living near Baltimore, I had the good fortune to take a lot of lessons from Billy McComiskey... I don't know any box player who has considered fingering as closely as he has. Unfortunately, he has never developed any sort of tutoring materials that could be used at a distance. Ultimately though the key is that there should be very little reaching for notes; the notes should fall naturally under your fingers 19 times out of 20, and you should pretty much never slide. If you ever get a chance to watch Billy play, you will be amazed at how little effort it seems to take him to play regardless of how fast he is playing.

--
Bill

[Sliabh Luachra]

Not only is Paddy O'Brien a brilliant musician, he's an outstandingly nice guy! I've had the distinct pleasure of sharing a couple of evenings talking with him when Chulrua has swung through my area. If you can, I would definitely recommend looking him up. His email is somewhere on the Chulrua website (http://www.chulrua.com) as is his phone number.

[StevieJ]

I've heard a number of people who've studied with Billy McComiskey say you should never (or in Liam's case "pretty much never") slide. But another top box player told me not to worry - Billy does use sliding. Having just had a good look at this clip in full-screen mode, I reckon he does a fair bit of sliding from inner to outer row.

[MTGuru]

That's very interesting, Steve. As in many areas, I often find that people, even experts, can be notoriously inaccurate about self-reporting their own behavior. And I think about this whenever I hear second-hand that so-and-so always does this or that, technically - whether it's fingering, or tonguing, or whatever. Only to find direct evidence that they don't do what they say, and always isn't always always.

I guess it might be difficult to determine visually the difference between sliding and hopping, depending on the exact movement, button contact, etc. But sliding seems like such a natural movement when playing inside-out, that it's hard to believe it's not pretty common as a fingering option, at least at times.

[StevieJ]

That's right, don't do as I do, do as I tell you...

In some cases there may (I suppose) be good reason for people to learn things the hard way and then later relax and break the rules/do things the lazy way/whatever.

Then again, teachers may think they are limited by their own ingrained habits but don't want students to be similarly restricted. For example, as an interesting twist on the use/don't use your pinky debate, one very good player I know apparently told a student that while she never uses her fourth finger, she thinks students ought to

[Liam]

I've heard a number of people who've studied with Billy McComiskey say you should never (or in Liam's case "pretty much never") slide. But another top box player told me not to worry - Billy does use sliding. Having just had a good look at this clip in full-screen mode, I reckon he does a fair bit of sliding from inner to outer row.

Well mind you I am working with what Billy told me, and it did help me develop my ability to play tunes up to speed. Other teachers do seem have other approaches and a lot of them are very good players. That being said, of B/C players, I have seen very few who seem to play as effortlessly as Billy.

As for the clip, I have looked at it once, and I didn't get that good of a look at it because of my internet connection. That being said, knowing Billy, and how he plays, I think he is probably doing a lot less sliding there than you seem to think he is. A lot of time he crosses over fingers and it is hard to see unless he moves other fingers to show you. I do admit I have seen him slide once or twice on a given tune, but I think in those cases he was trying to emulate a specific style of playing. Also, I have seen him sliding when he is learning a new tune and hasn't had a chance to work out the best fingering.

In any case, I think the ultimate point here is that the key to speed is figuring out how to get your hand to do the least amount of work possible to play the notes.

--
Bill

[StevieJ]

I think the ultimate point here is that the key to speed is figuring out how to get your hand to do the least amount of work possible to play the notes.

"Getting your hand to do the least amount of work" seems to imply that the hand shouldn't move unless it has to, and I think the opposite is true. To me the key seems to be to moving the hand constantly, keeping your fingers generally close together and over the centre of the action, and developing fingering habits that allow you to hit notes as cleanly and surely as possible.

And BTW I would have thought if doing the least amount of work possible were a priority, then sliding would be desirable. Avoiding a slide means using another finger, therefore making your fingers work more. Yes?

[Liam]

I think the ultimate point here is that the key to speed is figuring out how to get your hand to do the least amount of work possible to play the notes.

"Getting your hand to do the least amount of work" seems to imply that the hand shouldn't move unless it has to, and I think the opposite is true. To me the key seems to be to moving the hand constantly, keeping your fingers generally close together and over the centre of the action, and developing fingering habits that allow you to hit notes as cleanly and surely as possible.

Well, since I tend to think of the fingers as part of the hand, I included them in my definition. But I think of it from the perspective of the whole tune... sometimes it makes sense to reach for a note if for example you have a high note followed immediately by a low note followed by another high note. Other times, It is figuring out how to finger a given sequence of notes such that the next sequence falls naturally under your fingers.

And BTW I would have thought if doing the least amount of work possible were a priority, then sliding would be desirable. Avoiding a slide means using another finger, therefore making your fingers work more. Yes?

I will use an analogy here from computer science. There are essentially two types of laziness... smart laziness and dumb laziness. Smart Laziness is willing to do work now to avoid more work later. Dumb laziness avoids any effort now in the vain hope that it won't have to exert effort later. Smart laziness is what we should be shooting for here. I.e., I think, you effort should be expended now to ensure that passages can be played easily. If one is sliding, one has to be very careful to hit the right note... where as if you work out a good fingering for the tune, you know that your finger will hit the right button because it is right under the finger... or sometimes only a small reach away.

--
Bill

[StevieJ]

There shouldn't be much to argue about in all this. Everybody is striving for the same thing - maximum ease and reliability, allowing for comfort and speed. I quite agree that smart laziness is desirable: if I slide I can assure you isn't through dumbness, or because I haven't tried a number of other possibilities.

[ceemonster]

speaking of billy mccomiskey, does anyone know if fingering & technique figure substantially in the billy/sean advanced-level box class in the catskills? sometimes "advanced" turns out to mean, a forced march of ear-learned tunes, which i find to be a waste of time & money given that one can (& i do) ear-learn at home. i'd be looking for, a little ear-learning & a lot of fingering/bellows/interpretation/etc, rather than, a lot of ear-learning & little to no technique.....i would love to spend a week getting fingering and other technique input from him....

and speaking of paddy o'brien, he is my favorite b/c box player. his massive tune collection, once available on cassette and now i believe available on cd, is the most gorgeous example of irish accordion playing....he is probly the reason i stayed on b/c rather than switching to c#/d........i've enjoyed a lesson with him and can't say eniough about how generous he is and how inspiring his take on traditional irish music has been for me....his wife's mystery novels are also FANTASTIC!

[Liam]

speaking of billy mccomiskey, does anyone know if fingering & technique figure substantially in the billy/sean advanced-level box class in the catskills? sometimes "advanced" turns out to mean, a forced march of ear-learned tunes, which i find to be a waste of time & money given that one can (& i do) ear-learn at home. i'd be looking for, a little ear-learning & a lot of fingering/bellows/interpretation/etc, rather than, a lot of ear-learning & little to no technique.....i would love to spend a week getting fingering and other technique input from him....

and speaking of paddy o'brien, he is my favorite b/c box player. his massive tune collection, once available on cassette and now i believe available on cd, is the most gorgeous example of irish accordion playing....he is probly the reason i stayed on b/c rather than switching to c#/d........i've enjoyed a lesson with him and can't say eniough about how generous he is and how inspiring his take on traditional irish music has been for me....his wife's mystery novels are also FANTASTIC!

Having taken Billy's class several times in the Catskills as well as lessons at his home (Living in Maryland can be truly great sometimes ), I can tell you that generally the class is part about learning tunes and part about technique. A large part of it will depend on who is there taking lessons (The Catskills allows you to take whatever class you want... the first year I was up there, I took Billy's Advanced class even though I had only been playing box for 6 months... in fairness though, it was because Billy told me to -- I had been feeling cocky and asked him if I maybe should take the intermediate class as opposed to the intermediate class and he told me I was taking his class). In some cases, I have seen him work with tunes most of the students know, but concentrating on how to finger the tune. Other times, he teaches tunes (But will always show his fingering for them). After learning about a dozen tunes from him, you get to the point where you know how he would finger the tune about 80-90% of the time.

--
Bill

[Caj]

Certainly if you can't play a tune slowly and have it sound really good, it will sound like a dog's breakfast when you try to speed it up. But if you just keep playing slow for hours and months and years... well that's all you'll be able to do. No fairy is going to wave a wand and make you able to play fast - you have to practise playing fast. Oder?

I think the best is to practice near the edge of your range, but not where things get messy and mushy. Play as fast as you can while keeping sufficient space between notes, a steady rhythm, and no missed notes.

Classical accordion players have speed exercises they do, but I think trad music is short and consistent enough that exercises and etudes just seem redundant---you might as well just play lots of tunes. Noel Hill always told us to play scales, though, every day.

[groxburgh]

Question #2: is it easier to get more speed on the PA or chromatic button (continental) systems?

Since I play ITM on a chromatic button (continental) system (CBA) and don't know anyone else who does I'll have a crack at answering this:

No...... While some things are easier/faster on the CBA other things are not and really it comes down to all the other advise you've been given. Choosing to play CBA rather than B/C C#/D or whatever is not something you'd do to make playing faster easier, but there are other reasons why I prefer it.

As for running with a CBA vs a diatonic box, it depends on the box. Most CBAs are large and heavy and so running with them is slow; but not all are, and I play one that's no heavier than your average diatonic box.

Cheers
Graeme