On the fence

[Ro3b]

I played B/C accordion for four years. Then I switched to C#/D and played that for four years. Nowadays I'm picking up the B/C again, and I'm in this strange state of mind where I really don't know which system I want to concentrate on. Every time I pick up one box or the other I find myself thinking "oh, yeah, THIS is what I should play." Today I'm leaning towards B/C, but that's only likely to last until the next tune in A I learn. I've attained a level of not-quite-sucking on both systems, but I feel like I'm not going to advance any further until I decide which system I play.

So. Convince me.

[StevieJ]

Haaaa! I tossed a coin and the answer was clear.




It said you should.... MUYOFM




Seriously though, B/C is soooo conventional.


Seriously though, who cares? They're the same instrument but for a couple of sharps. A pretty dull, limited and mechanical instrument, unremittingly and excruciatingly equal-tempered, albeit with a few redeeming features.

The point is if you get really good on the thing, the system doesn't matter. And if you don't get really good, but only just out of the sucking realm, then the box is only good as a foil for a fiddle anyway, in which case the system doesn't matter again....

I agree you should get off the fence though!

Fat lot of help aren't I?

[Azalin]

Well, if I had to pick up accordion now (let's say I had a gun pointed at me) I'd say I pick C#/D. Why? Gosh, most of the great players I've encountered are either playing C#/D or thinking of switching to it... Seriously though, I'm very ignorant in this matter, but I'd say most Clare box players play C#/D. Yeah, you will be able to find examples of great players who play B/C, but I'm sure the majority play C#/D. Is that the case? Why?

[StevieJ]

I've been reflecting more on the matter, Rob, and in view of earlier statements from you about the accordion's sex appeal, it seems to me that the easiest way out of this dilemma for you is to establish which system has greater babe magnetism. Just imagine being accosted on your way to the bar by some green-eyed nymphet. As we box players know, this happens with surprising regularity.

"Wow, the accordion sounds great. What system do you play?"

You lean over and whisper confidentially into her ear...

What? I'm pretty sure that the breathy sibilance of the words "C sharp" will advance your cause far more effectively than the alternative.

Mind you I suppose you could say C#/D even if you were playing something as unsexy as a D/G.

I'm very ignorant in this matter...

We suspected as much.

... but I'd say most Clare box players play C#/D.

Thanks for proving it

I'll bring my gun and my spare C#/D box on Friday

[Ro3b]

Seriously though, who cares? They're the same instrument but for a couple of sharps. A pretty dull, limited and mechanical instrument, unremittingly and excruciatingly equal-tempered, albeit with a few redeeming features.

The point is if you get really good on the thing, the system doesn't matter.

Yeah, that's all true. I tell people it ultimately boils down to how one prefers to conceptualize the scales, and that it's pretty easy to make one system sound like the other, and besides the odd green-eyed nymphet the only people who are going to care which you play are other box players. So taking my own advice, I think a recommittment to B/C may be in the offing.

[StevieJ]

BTW I admire the fact that you can not suck at both. I've been experimenting with B/C fingerings for quite a while but tunes in D, in particular, still tend to tie me in knots until I've worked at them laboriously - especially in the higher reaches of the upper octave.

Some tunes do work nicely for me in B/C style, and making more use of "triangles" is neat. Still, I haven't got to a stage where I perceive any overwhelming "why" in favour of the system, at least not for playing in the core keys. The fluidity isn't a big selling point for me and any gains from reduced bellows waggling are outweighed by the increased finger gymnastics required. But then, unlike you, I don't have top B/C players floating around nearby who might make me feel isolated, and maybe I just haven't persisted obstinately enough for the scales to fall from my eyes.

Keep us posted...

[daiv]

i've never played C#/D so i cant comment. i've only touched accordions a couple times in my life. i dont know... B/C seemed intuitive enough, but C#/D just sounds more intuitive. i play the concertina, so reaching down for F# and C# was so intuitive that i can't see how tunes might *not* fit well. then again, nothings fits well on the concertina.

why not stick at both? shannon heaton, a flute player from boston, gave me some good advice. i asked her when i got my first wooden flute if i should continue to practice my silver flute, or go to the wooden flute to get used to it. she said that i should play the instrument i am more concerned about at the time first and last. so, she said, if i feel like i am committed to the silver flute, then every practice session should consist of starting on the silver flute, moving to the wooden flute, and ending on the silver flute. if i felt like i wanted to commit to the wooden flute, do the opposite.

so, if you find yourself really leaning towards the B/C, lean towards it at the beginning and the end. that way, you will be giving it the most attention, as well as not neglecting the C#/D. the fact t hat it is first and last also will help solidify it in your brain as the domininant concern. actually, the double exposure will be more beneficial than playing straight through (i forget the name of it, perhaps multiple exposure theory).

[bohemian]

I am primarily a one row player, but have owned and dabbled with B/C and C#/D though only for a short time

Some things to help you in your decision ( right ! )

" I switched from B/C to C#/D because I got tired of playing on the pull"... Mairtin O/Connor in a phone call about 8 years ago when I was waffling just as you are.

" You only need one box and that's a B/C, and if you can play B/C you can play anything" Billy McComiskey

Sharon Shannon plays both

In reality the boxes are the same. If you really master either you have mastered both.
Meaning that if you can play the B/C sytem and the C#/D system on the C#/D you can also play them on the B/C
and the opposite.... ergo there really is no system it is playing the instrument in every way possible...and that can be done on either box...

These decisions come down to playing in D. Or how do you want to play D..... rhythm and bounce such as is natural on the C#/D or fluid such as the B/C.

Listen to Mairtin O'Connor rip on his C#/D 2 1/2 row and then listen to him play the D/D# on his Perpetual Motion CD... that is a cracker...

To me, Irish music is about the dance, the drive the rhythm, and that spells C#/D to me. The old accordion sound of the
D push pull with the advantage of the accidentals.

B/C emulates fiddle... so if you want to sound like a reeded fiddle go for B/C. : )

I enjoy players of both systems.... but I always come back to the Begleys and Jackie Daly and Mairtin O'Connor as examples of C#/D playing

Another way to make that decision is to answer the question of who is your favorite player....

Or another way is that the majority of tutorials are for B/C... I just ordered another ! even though I have not answered the question for myself.

I have a long llist of favored B/C players.....

Sounds like a decision of default.... or if I choose one will I regret not taking the other path

By definition a decision is an irrevocable course of action...... And that is what we all fear......
a decision a real decision doesn't alllow for do overs.

EVen though some say the B/C is more difficult than the C#/D, I donlt think that is true once you have gotten beyond suckage, and it sounds like that is where you are.

If you decide to be a B/C player but would miss the drive of playing in D on a D row ,that is where the melodeon ( one row) is supreme. Paul Brock is an example of that. You might give that a consideration.... John Gardiner is another example.

Curious as to where you land on this

Best of luck

[mutepointe]

Why are you even choosing in the first place? I don't know a lot about this kind of instrment. I received a C/G Bastari as a Christmas present 2 years ago. I don't know if it's an Anglo or whatever. I have a fingering chart and I'm teaching myself. I could sure understand if you're taking this more seriously than I am. It would be hard to take this less seriously than me. But there are many musicians who play many musical instruments and we just keep everything straight in our heads somehow.

[Ro3b]

Well, I don't have a problem playing many musical instruments (I play Irish flute, guitar, mandolin, bouzouki, and button accordion). But the C#/D and B/C really are the same instrument played two different ways, each calling on a different vocabulary of ornamentation/variations/gestures, and neither one being evidently "better" than the other. Right now I'm like a kid that grew up in a household where English and French were both spoken: I'm not going to be any good at either one until I decide what my native language is. Right now I don't think in either B/C or C#/D, and that's holding me back from developing any kind of deep instinct on the instrument.

BTW, Bohemian, your points are all very well taken and don't help a bit. You mention the Begleys; I remember sitting down with Seamus Begley and Stephen Cooney's album and figuring that Seamus was playing a D/D# box with B/C fingering for the most part. Whereas Brendan is firmly a D box man. Shrug?

[StevieJ]

Right now I'm like a kid that grew up in a household where English and French were both spoken: I'm not going to be any good at either one until I decide what my native language is.

I see what you are saying, but I don't think that's a good analogy. My kids (like thousands of others around here) are growing up in a household where English and French are both spoken. At some point they will probably choose to identify more strongly with one language than the other, but they are very fluent in both, and feel perfectly at home in either.

[Ro3b]

I see what you are saying, but I don't think that's a good analogy. My kids (like thousands of others around here) are growing up in a household where English and French are both spoken. At some point they will probably choose to identify more strongly with one language than the other, but they are very fluent in both, and feel perfectly at home in either.

Yeah, it's a crappy analogy. But the question is, what accordion tuning do they like better?

FWIW, I'm having another C#/D phase currently...

[mutepointe]

Are you becoming a professional musician or studying at the higher educational level where you need to fully devote yourself to one specific instrument to achieve a particular level of mastery? Is there some other reason that making a choice is necessary that we're just not getting? Do you need to sell one of the instruments? Do you need to make a firm decision now? Could you make a tentative decision, like decide to choose to play one instrument for 6 months and see how that goes and then choose to play the other instrument for 6 months and see how that goes?

[bohemian]

After I posted I realized that the comments were balanced for either system and useless for making a decision


I listened to a lot of box playing over the past couple days

My mind says B/C my heart says C#/D...

Drive, rhythm, old style, FUN yet capable of subtle play as well

Pick either and go with it for 6 months without picking up the other box and then make your decision

Definition of a decision
An IRREVOCABLE course of action

I think you are right about the D/D# and Begley

[ceemonster]

no, it is not true that "most clare players players play c#/d." no, it is not true that "most players play c#/d." yes, it IS true, that if you are going to be really good, you are going to be able to play both.

why? because a really good, serious box player as opposed to a passable one, must play well in all keys used in irish trad. somebody like billy mccomiskey could play along with the cooley record in its original e-flat register without batting an eyelash, and all he would lack would be the e-flat basses. sure, they usually record or perform in "optimal" keys for their box, and to do this they change boxes or change keys to hit fingerings they like, but really good players CAN play well in all of them. the really serious players have boxes in different key tunings so they can pick which one has the fingering they like best for that key.

so, for example, if, say, you happened to be a b/c player (like me ) who loves the low "flat" keys such as C majorish, F, or g minor/mixylish, so loved by us east clare/east galway devotees....you are gonna be a c#/d player whether you meant to be or not. why? tunes in these keys on b/c are fingered exactly as you finger them in D majorish, G , and a-minor/mixylish, on the c#/d. so....when b/c players play a D tune in C or a G tune in F, or an a-minor/mix/modalish tune in g-minor/mix/modalish, they are in fact playing C#/D fingering, capeesh? or other way round, when a c#/d player wants to play flat, they grab a b/c box and play their D tunes in C, their G tunes in F, and their a-minorish tunes in g-minorish.

on the "open hearth" duo cd by andrew & mary mac, for example, andrew is playing most of those tracks on a b/c box using his c#/d fingering. sharon shannon records plenty of flat tunes playing on the C row of the b/c box she keeps for playing flat, see?

i am actually right now in the process of seriously expanding my C, F & G minor repertoire partly to play the low keys that i love, and partly because...ok, i, too have a little C#/D fetish. my d minor on b/c is the same fingering as a c#/d player's e minor, dig? if i learn pat o'connor's "green mountain" cd, or the older tulla ceili records, much of which are in C & F, i'm gonna be playing it all c#/d style. same with christy mcnamara's record, "the house i was reared in." christy is one of the many clare players who play b/c. on that record he is playing mostly in C, F, and g minor------thus, c#/d fingering. josephine, who also is a lovely clare b/c player, does plenty of tunes in C & F, as does johnny mccarthy of ennis, a gorgeous clare b/c player whose cd "solo run" is full of flat tunes. mary rafferty is a b/c player who does all that ravishing east galway stuff on her b/c.

conversely, c#/d players are also often using fingerings that b/c players use. when c#/d players play e-majorish tunes, they are using the exact same fingering b/c players use for D-majorish tunes. a c#/d player's a minor/modal/mixyl-ish fingering is the same as a b/c player's g minor/modal/mixyl-ish figering.

in fact, i'm starting to believe that except for majorish tunes in the key with the same name as the scale of the row you are playing on (D majorish for c#/d, C majorish for b/c) the whole alleged polarity is propaganda. bottom line, the only time the c#/d players are getting the "true" press-draw feel in its 100% pure, unadulterated press-draw form, are D majorish tunes on the D row, or C majori-ish on the C row of the b/c. (the minorish/modalish/mixylish tunes in the row key are not discernibly more "press-draw" than on the b/c.) Coming in second would be major-ish tunes in the key of the fifth to the name-row key. so A major-ish for the c#/d, G major-ish for the b/c, yes, they too kinda have the press-draw feel. all the other keys on c#/d don't have any magic press-draw sound. it is no coincidence that when you think of the iconic c#/d recordings that allegedly have "the" sound, the tunes are nearly all in name-row majorish keys. i.e., the "cooley" record, where nearly all the tunes are in e-flat majorish on the e-flat row of a d/d# box. or the sliabh luachra stuff in D & A.

if you're really serious, you want more than one box in different keys, because you don't have enough basses to play in all of the keys. from an expressive-freedom standpoint, the whole thing can be a major pain in the keester.
which is why playing the concertina to me felt like a bird flying out of the cage. and which is additionally why i am also getting seriously addicted to the continental chromatic button accordion.

AND, which is ALSO why tony macmahon recently stated in an interview, "F*** THE TWO-ROW DIATONIC ACCORDION!!!!"


in sum, here are some lovely clips of a gent playing cooley-style on an e-flat box. if i played these tunes in C and F and g-minor on my b/c box, they would finger just the same :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHh6MmM810s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muzUkgUmwuI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJ598e_LNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVihTLHArU8