Accordion Pickups / Mic Technique

[projektio28]

I have recently joined a band and experience some issues with using a microphone with my piano accordion. During one of our first rehearsals I noticed that we isolated my squeezebox as the cause of the feedback through the mic/monitors via the mixer. I have never used a microphone with an accordion before, and I did see (via Google) that some people had experienced similar situation.

It sounds like my best bet would be to find either a better microphone, or better way of setting up the microphone, so that this type of situation does not happen at an actual gig or show. Also, has anyone had any luck of rigging up their accordion with a pickup or some sort?

I am open to any and all suggestions. I am on somewhat of a limited budget, so even if I have to buy electronic transducers and jacks from Radio Shack and build something myself, I am certainly not opposed to breaking out the old soldering iron!

Cheers in advance!

Matt

[Jack Bradshaw]

By far the cheapest setup I've seen is a small dynamic speaker suspended on elastic bands in the center of the bellows (internally, that is) and brought out through a jack. My chemnitzer came that way and seems to work well enough...... (a lot will depend on the capability of your preamp of course)

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

A lot of conjunto players will take a Shure SM57 and break the casing off it, and basically do the same thing. It works pretty good, and is very similar to the chemnitzer setup mentioned above. I'd recommend doing an xlr out if their is room on the instrument for it.

[projektio28]

I've only heard the word "chemnitzer" in passing before... Is that a type of accordion, or brand more specifically?

Thanks for the tips... Since it is a 120 bass button accordion I do have a lot of room on the sides where I could potentially mount a jack. I guess this will probably turn into a DIY project in short order. I will need to go slowly so I don't wreck the instrument of course... They don't make 1930s German, heavy-as-hell quality wood like they used to!

Matt

[MTGuru]

I've only heard the word "chemnitzer" in passing before... Is that a type of accordion, or brand more specifically?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemnitzer_concertina

I played for a few years in band with a piano accordion. Fiddle, box, and guitar were miked and we didn't experience any particular feedback problems. Usually just SM57s or similar pointed at the treble grill and angled back, and PA speakers in front of the band. No more than the usual diddling around with levels and EQ to match the room. A good microphone with a nice, tight cardioid or hypercardioid pattern is a must for off-axis feedback rejection - no omnidirectional mikes.

Bass side is trickier, of course. You need to leave some distance, which means higher input levels and more danger of feedback.

Microvox make dedicated electret contact mikes for accordion, available through dealers like The Button Box. The bars attach with Velcro, and are either self powered or use a propriety power unit / preamp. You feed the 1/4" output through a direct box for XLR input.

http://www.microvox.demon.co.uk/accpage.htm

I've used their concertina system for a number of years. It's worked fine for me, more convenient than miking. And it's always nice to have some control over your own levels before you reach the board.

[projektio28]

I played for a few years in band with a piano accordion. Fiddle, box, and guitar were miked and we didn't experience any particular feedback problems. Usually just SM57s or similar pointed at the treble grill and angled back, and PA speakers in front of the band. No more than the usual diddling around with levels and EQ to match the room. A good microphone with a nice, tight cardioid or hypercardioid pattern is a must for off-axis feedback rejection - no omnidirectional mikes.

Bass side is trickier, of course. You need to leave some distance, which means higher input levels and more danger of feedback.

Thanks MTGuru (per usual) for the tips. Luckily I won't be using the bass sides much since this band has a bassist in it. Not to mention everyone else is plugged into an amp (yes, even the banjo!)

I have seen the MicroVox system online and it presents an intriguing option. I want to exhaust all options before I choose them. I am sure their product is great, since you and others have had good luck with it, but $200+ for a microphone and a power supply might be too much at the moment. We shall see...

Also, thanks for mentioning about the microphones, I had forgotten about the different types of patterns and failed to notice what type they were using the other night at rehearsal.

Matt

[MTGuru]

Luckily I won't be using the bass sides much since this band has a bassist in it.

It was the same with us. I usually played electric bass with the group, so the accordionist usually (but not always) just miked only the treble side. The problem with accordion is that it's more a line source than a point source of sound. So you need to back away a bit and/or angle the microphone to catch the spread.

My only complaint with the MicroVox system is the PSU power supply. It's a bit clunky - basically a thick walled aluminum box with 4 big Phillips screws and components hand-fitted inside. Looks kind of like a homebrew project, and I had to stuff it with extra foam to keep things from moving around and shorting. It would be nicer with an XLR out, no DI box needed. But as a compromise among price, decent sound, and convenience, it's done a good job (but I think Niall Vallely's dual goosenecks look cooler). For B/C box I've used the MicroVox gooseneck taped above the grill and pointing down, and that's not bad either.

I've seen other accordion systems from Baldoni, Accusound and others. Of course, you could always get a MIDI accordion, and do away with the mike altogether ...

[projektio28]

It was the same with us. I usually played electric bass with the group, so the accordionist usually (but not always) just miked only the treble side. The problem with accordion is that it's more a line source than a point source of sound. So you need to back away a bit and/or angle the microphone to catch the spread.

My only complaint with the MicroVox system is the PSU power supply. It's a bit clunky - basically a thick walled aluminum box with 4 big Phillips screws and components hand-fitted inside. Looks kind of like a homebrew project, and I had to stuff it with extra foam to keep things from moving around and shorting. It would be nicer with an XLR out, no DI box needed. But as a compromise among price, decent sound, and convenience, it's done a good job (but I think Niall Vallely's dual goosenecks look cooler). For B/C box I've used the MicroVox gooseneck taped above the grill and pointing down, and that's not bad either.

I've seen other accordion systems from Baldoni, Accusound and others. Of course, you could always get a MIDI accordion, and do away with the mike altogether ...

Call me crazy, but someone on another random website had suggested you could potentially remove the casing from a Shure SM57 and mount the "guts" on the inside of the accordion, thus creating a demented XLR port on the side of the accordion to run a microphone cable out to either the mixer, or I guess the DI box.

One of these days I will "Wiki" what the DI box is used for so I can go, "Oh yeah, duh, that's what the roadies are always plugging stuff into..." LOL!

I am going to take a plunge at solving this problem at the next rehearsal with mic distance and the angle as you suggest. I will report back after this Thursday with my success/failure.

Cheers!

Matt

[MTGuru]

Call me crazy, but someone on another random website had suggested you could potentially remove the casing from a Shure SM57 and mount the "guts" on the inside of the accordion, thus creating a demented XLR port on the side of the accordion to run a microphone cable out to either the mixer, or I guess the DI box.

I've seen that described too, with electret mikes, crystal mikes, and dynamic mikes like the 57. Why not, I guess?

One of these days I will "Wiki" what the DI box is used for so I can go, "Oh yeah, duh, that's what the roadies are always plugging stuff into..." LOL!

A DI box (direct input or injection) is just an impedance and balun transformer. It lets you take a high-impedance, unbalanced, 1/4-inch line (e.g. electric guitar, or amp tap) and transform it to a low-impedance, balanced, XLR line to plug directly into the microphone input of a mixing board. This usually gives a stronger, cleaner signal than plugging into a high-Z board input, and lets you take full advantage of the board's preamp circuitry. DI boxes also often have things like polarity reversal, ground lifts, signal splitting, and phantom power isolation that can be very useful in live sound setups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit

I have the Behringer DI-20 shown in the Wikipedia article. It's a bit noisy for recording, but works basically fine on stage. I prefer to mike my instruments whenever possible, but if I did more plug-in performing / recording I'd get a quieter DI box.

Good luck with the gig!

[projektio28]

I wanted to report back with my latest findings...and success!

This time at rehearsal we tried adjusting the angle of the SM58 (normally we use SM57) and aimed it directly at the accordion's grille. Basically the "arm" of the microphone stand that is holding the mic itself was bent at a little less than a 45 degree angle to get it level with the accordion itself, and then we turned the microphone basically 90 degrees and horizontal (if that makes sense) to the grille.

This seems to have helped eliminate the feedback issues we were experiencing the other night. Also, the guys that I play with tend to turn their amps up DAMN LOUD during practice (I don't have a problem with volume at gigs) so it might have been the case that somehow the bassist or banjoist who stand near me were letting the sound from that amp overwhelm the microphone I was using...

At any rate, thanks for the help and suggestions guys. I guess I won't need to drill any holes in my accordion (luckily) but I could always explore the small clip-on Sennheisers people have mentioned at a later date.

Cheers!

Matt

[MTGuru]

I wanted to report back with my latest findings...and success!