Several Questions from A New Player

[Jenny]

Hi -
Been playing and enjoying my c#/d accordion for several months now and have several questions to throw out at you.

First, in all the tunes I'm working on or have looked at (mostly in D or G) there are no notes below the low D. Is this common in trad tunes? Do Irish players ever use those low buttons/notes - and if so, when?

And this - during the holidays I listened to the Boys of the Lough's Midwinter Night's Dream quite a bit. The Mummers Jig caught my ear so I found the sheet music for it on the Sessions site and am enjoying learning it. In the second section of the tune the first two bars are FAA ADD, FAA BGG. Those three A's in a row seem a little boring to me. What would you do to make it sound a little more colorful? I've tried changing the third A to a quick FA which doesn't seem too bad. I'd like to know what other folks would try.

Thanks very much,
Jenny

[StevieJ]

D is the bottom note on pipes, whistles and (mostly) flutes, which is why the majority of tunes don't go any lower.

But there are plenty of good fiddle tunes that do, going right down to G (lowest note available on a fiddle). Pipers, fluters and whistlers have to fake these notes (play them an octave up, play something else that fits), but box players don't - be happy!

Classic tunes that go down low: Farewell to Ireland, Lads of Laois, Sean Ryan's jig - there are hundreds more.

Mind you on the box, those lower notes will get you tearing your hair out in the early stages, because the notes below D get "out of synch" - for example, on your C#/D box your low B is on a button nearer your chin than your low A.

As for the three repeated As - yes they can sound boring. The easiest way to tackle them is to stick a cut (grace note) in between the second and third of them. (This is what you seem to have found, except it would be more usual to grace with a higher note rather than a lower one.)

E.g. play FAA {d}ADD. The high d in the braces is your cut - clip the button above the A immediately before you sound the third A. This is exactly what you might do on a whistle or flute, btw.

Another neat grace you can use on a halfstep box like a C#/D or B/C is to use the note a semitone below your main note, from the outer row. For example you can grace an A with a quick (very quick!) G#. Without trying it, I'm not sure what it will sound like in this passage, but it's a great trick to keep up your sleeve, giving a very characteristically Irish-box sound. It's the nearest thing you can get to a slide up to a note.

Going back to repeated notes, in the early stages it's hard to make repeated notes like this sound not-lame, but as your control over your fingers (and bellows pressure) improves, you'll find you can make them much smoother.

Until you get to that point, another way to get them sounding smoother, more legato, is to use different fingers. Try playing FAA ADD with fingers 121 211... it's a trick I use a lot. I wrote a topic about it a while back, here it is: http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=40219

Cheers
Steve

[SteveShaw]

D tunes don't cause too many problems for diatonic harmonica players for the same reason - they stop at D (Home Ruler and Kitty's Wedding, played by Hill and Linnane in that famous set, are both exceptions). But a lot of G major tunes also go down to D, and this is a big issue with G harmonicas as there is a missing note (the 6th of the scale). I found a similar issue when I played around in my extremely amateurish way with tunes on a D/G box. I seem to remember that it was mostly tunes with a bigger than usual range. Give Me Your Hand, Ashokan Farewell, Tommy Bhetty's, for example I thought about having the whole low end retuned, but what a minefield for a poor lad such as me!

[StevieJ]

But a lot of G major tunes also go down to D, and this is a big issue with G harmonicas as there is a missing note (the 6th of the scale).

I've encountered the same problem with G tunes on the triangle.

Seriously, on a D/G box, you'd get the missing note from the other row, wouldn't you?

[SteveShaw]

But a lot of G major tunes also go down to D, and this is a big issue with G harmonicas as there is a missing note (the 6th of the scale).

I've encountered the same problem with G tunes on the triangle.

Seriously, on a D/G box, you'd get the missing note from the other row, wouldn't you?

Hey, I'm not diggin' out the owld thing from under six inches of dust just to find out this minute, but I seem to remember there was an issue with some tunes "down there." Not being a box man by instinct, I may get back to you on this in the dim and distant future.

[Jenny]

Thank you for the replies. I especially appreciate the specific names of tunes. I can track them down and add a few to my practice list. I'd like to get my fingers used to the idea that they need to travel on up those buttons once in awhile.

Thanks also for the ideas on grace notes. Nimble fingers seem to be a key, and something I can work on.

Jenny

[Martin Milner]

But a lot of G major tunes also go down to D, and this is a big issue with G harmonicas as there is a missing note (the 6th of the scale).

I've encountered the same problem with G tunes on the triangle.

Seriously, on a D/G box, you'd get the missing note from the other row, wouldn't you?

Hey, I'm not diggin' out the owld thing from under six inches of dust just to find out this minute, but I seem to remember there was an issue with some tunes "down there." Not being a box man by instinct, I may get back to you on this in the dim and distant future.

For G tunes that use D, E and F, yes, you can drop down to the D row for the E note when you need it. The button below your "home" G is D/F#. This is the most comon "off row" note required.

For D tunes, there's the button below home D, A/C# but you're missing a B note, and there's nowhere to drop down to.

This is the normal layout for an off-the-shelf D/G:



You can get your box retro-engineered to include the missing low notes, or get a box with a 4th button "home", but these would be non-standard layouts.

Of course the history of box playing is littered with non-standard layouts which supposedly improved on this layout, but when you've learnt on one of those, it's hard to manage a "normal" box, unless you're John Kirkpatrick.

I took the easy route and figured I'd have to work around the available notes.

[StevieJ]

Eek! Martin, that layout has no low B... verrry un-handy for playing Irish music.

And to get the thread back on topic (Steve - I don't think the name change means we necessarily have to have harmonica content in every thread )...

Jenny, about those three As being "boring" - part of their monotony might lie in their not being differentiated.

It's not easy to do on a button box, but in a well-played jig those notes want to have slight differences in length and volume or attack. The first of them, in particular, should not be overemphasized - it's the middle note in the grouping of three eighth notes, and this note needs to be shorter or less accented. If you work on that aspect of these repeated notes they may well start to sound less boring, with or without a grace note.

Aha - after a quick search on "The Mummers Jig" I realize it is what I (and most people, I would bet) know as "My Darling Asleep". You can get around the quandary in this particular case by playing something different from (and more common than) the phrase you quoted, such as:

FAA dAA | FAA BAG (lower case = second octave) or
FAA BAG | FAA BAG

But the technique of using a grace note on the third repeated note, esp. where the third note falls on the beat in a jig, is a basic and very useful addition to your bag of tricks.

[SteveShaw]

(Steve - I don't think the name change means we necessarily have to have harmonica content in every thread )...

I was relating in my own clumsy way the connection between D/G boxes and diatonic harmonicas. If that's the worst thread hijack you've ever seen you must...oh, never mind!

[Jenny]

I haven't had a chance to track down any of the tunes mentioned, but now that I know those notes do come in handy, I'll start incorporating them in the warm up exercises when I'm playing. Rather embarrassed to admit that I haven't really bothered with them at all yet.

Steve, I understand what you are saying about giving emphasis to one of the 3 notes. It does seem that playing the 3 in a manner that make them sound pleasant requires as much skill/practice as the other techniques mentioned (at least for me so far.) It makes me think of how Jackie Daly uses emphasis on some notes that really add punch to the tune. When you said that the more usual thing would be to use a grace note about the A, I wondered if I would be committing a faux pas if I used my lower grace note in the company of other Irish players?

Regarding the harmonica, I do enjoy its presence in tunes, but in the interest of domestic tranquility, I'll not take it up. Himself is already pouring over the marriage contract to find where it says anything about accordions.

Jenny

[StevieJ]

I wondered if I would be committing a faux pas if I used my lower grace note in the company of other Irish players?

No, there is no rigid code for how you should do anything on the box, not these days anyway. If you want that, take up the highland pipes...

You shouldn't get funny looks unless you play something that upsets the tune in some way, rhythmically, melodically, or harmonically.

Now about the marriage contract, LOL. Can't help you I'm afraid - I'm blessed with a very understanding partner. Maybe you should offer to take up the highland pipes instead? Hubby might decided he's better off with a box as a rival...

[Mr.Nate]

Jenny,

I am just a beginner myself so this is just an observation of how I have seen other players use the low notes.

The first thing I wanted to point out to you is that your Dancemaster has 23 buttons which gives you two more buttons and four more low notes than a 21 button! Older dancemasters and Hohners have 21 buttons. I haven't had the advantage of playing around with the two lowest buttons because I don't have them on my accordion. Michael said that he got enough requests for the 23 that he finally decided to upgrade his models to 23 buttons.

To answer your question I have seen other players use the lower notes for right handed chord accompanyment. If you look at my thread with Dermot Byrne http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/ep6.html and watch him play right hand chords way down at the bottom! He has a 23 key like you and he may even be playing BC style on a C#D so you could play along with him a little as a beginner. There is a part on the video where she sings and he playes right hand chords to accompany her..pretty cool!
I also notice BC players who accasionally dip down to grab a double stop. You can see it on the video you sent me from Comhaltas of the solo accordion player. When I saw Jackie Daly in concert I saw him go low every once in a while to drop below the normal D for Chords and double stops.
(edit..and the occacional tune that goes below D!)
Wouldn't it be nice if there were some teaching materials that could explain some of this stuff? I am sure there are some really good C#D players out there who could shed some light on this instrument but where are they?? Wish I knew.

Nate

[StevieJ]

Yes the lower notes are very useful for r/h chords, but you need them to play tunes too...

On a 23-button C#/D you'll need notes on all the buttons of the inside row just for the melody. You won't normally need the push notes on button 1 (low D) and button 2 (low F#) so their main use is for chords, but you will need the pull notes, low G and low B.

And you most definitely need to get used to the out-of-synch layout, particularly in sequences involving A, B and/or G.

Perhaps for Jenny as a C#/D player, a good idea would be to bring in just the B first - say on a tune such as the G reel usually known as The Banshee, which drops down to a low B in the first bar - (G3 D EDB,D |G3B d2 Bd... )

Easy enough? Then try a tune where you need both low A and B, such as Martin Wynne's no. 1. - end of bar 2, start of bar 3. This will tie your head in knots at first, I guarantee you. (But it gets easier very quickly.)

Another good workout for C#/D players is provided by tunes that feature arpeggios in G - all over the keyboard but especially down low. Here's a good one: Paddy Fahy's reel. Lovely tune too, lends itself well to being played slowly.

The first bar will help you get used to the button jumps you often need in G tunes, and get you working on a fingering pattern that suits you. I use fingers 1 and 2 only for that entire bar - the fruit of many hours of experimentation!

PS I wish I knew where the good players were, too, Nate. Maybe skill on the button box keyboard is inversely proportional to skill on the computer keyboard?

[Jenny]

Nate & Steve -
Thanks for the additional tips. Actually I was aware of the 23 buttons, as Michael pointed that feature out when we talked about his Dancemasters.

I hadn't thought of the right-handed chord idea - shows how green I am. I have been incorporating button number three in my runs up and down the buttons. Not quite ready to add the next one. Thanks for the names of tunes with low B. I'm sure I have at least two of them on recordings. I've been working on the My Darling Asleep/Mummers Jig, using the various ways to handle the 3 As in a row. It's quite a lot of fun to do something different each time around - and play the same tune over and over without getting bored. And, simple a tune as it is, it's a great one for practicing finger-switching on repeated notes.

I hesitate to throw out another lame question but here it is ... Should I be trying to use the bass side? Hanrahan in his book The Box doesn't go into great detail on this, so I've listened to his examples trying to eke out any little idea of what to do and when to do it, keeping in mind that he's teaching B/C. It seems it wouldn't hurt to at least get the left hand accustomed to doing something. Any books, websites, etc with info?

It would be a fine thing indeed to have more teaching materials. We sometimes attend the Southern Illinois Irish Festival in April. They haven't posted classes & teachers yet, but I'm hoping someone will teach a box workshop. (Cathie Ryan is the headline performer.)

Thanks again,
Jenny

[StevieJ]

Should I be trying to use the bass side? Hanrahan in his book The Box doesn't go into great detail on this, so I've listened to his examples trying to eke out any little idea of what to do and when to do it, keeping in mind that he's teaching B/C. It seems it wouldn't hurt to at least get the left hand accustomed to doing something. Any books, websites, etc with info?

It's really up to you Jenny.

In other traditions of diatonic squeezing (French and English, for example), the conventional wisdom seems to be that you should learn the left hand at the same time as the right.

In Irish music this is not the case, for a number of reasons. One is that historically, B/C boxes came with a bass setup that was of very little use for playing in D, G, Am, etc. Another is that the kind of bass playing that is easiest to do (oom-pah oom-pah etc.) doesn't do much for Irish tunes generally.

Personally I think it's a shame not to use the basses - but it's quite hard to use them effectively.

I would say concentrate on your right hand until you really feel the urge to use the basses.

When you're ready to start experimenting, pick a dead simple tune - a march or a waltz - and learn to put basses to it.

When you can do a regular oom-pah on a march, try doing the same on a reel. Then try leaving a lot of the ooms out and playing mainly pahs!

As for books and websites, there's a bit on Han Speek's pages: http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/irishbox/left_hand.html

Some C#/D players who make effective use of the basses are Jackie Daly, Conor Keane and Dave Munnelly.