Question for Box players: B/C or D/G?
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StevieJ
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If these are Irish-music summer schools you are talking about, almost certainly either B/C or C#/D, depending on the teacher. French music, it will most likely be G/C. English music (yes it does exist), D/G.claudine wrote:interesting thread, but now I still do not know which instrument to buy (if I can ever afford that, thinking about both money and practice time). can anyone tell me what key the teachers at the summer schools do play? what kind of instrument do they teach there?
If I were you, I would make my mind up what system I wanted to play, based on what music I wanted to play, and on the players I admire, and then look for tuition after that.
Steve
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rh
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C#/D is what Jackie Daly plays.claudine wrote:irish music, for sure, and Jackie Daly maybe
If Sliabh Luachra music in particular is your interest, C#/D is what you want.
Nothing really in the way of self-tutors for C#/D, unfortunately, but it's not hard to figure out tunes in D and G on your own. There are several self-tutors available for B/C (Williams, Hernon, Hickey, etc).
there is no end to the walking
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StevieJ
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People often seem to say this, the implication usually being that if slides and polkas are not your main interest, then you need a B/C. Mostly it comes from B/C players who appear to want to pigeonhole the C#/D and, presumably, reassert their system's greater suitability for the rest of Irish music.rh wrote:If Sliabh Luachra music in particular is your interest, C#/D is what you want.
Of course this may not be what you mean rh, but I'd point out that quite a few prominent C#/D exponents - come to think of it, most of them - don't particularly favour Sliabh Luachra music.
Don't want to start the whole debate over the merits of the two systems again, though, we've done that!
Steve
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rh
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Oh no, not what i meant at all... my favorite box player is Conor Keane, a Clareman. But Claudine mentioned Jackie Daly, who is from Sliabh Luachra; and some people who like Jackie really like them some slides and polkas -- Jackie of course plays everything well, but his early work was more Kerry-centric. And a lot of Kerry polkas lie quite nicely under the fingers on a C#/D keyboard.StevieJ wrote:Of course this may not be what you mean rh, but I'd point out that quite a few prominent C#/D exponents - come to think of it, most of them - don't particularly favour Sliabh Luachra music.
Certainly there are B/C players who play some great Kerry music as well -- look at Donal Murphy's playing with Sliabh Notes.
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buttonbox
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As is usually the case when someone asks the "B/C vs. C#/D" (or pick whatever keys you desire), one of the better answers is "Which is the one that is either played most in your area OR the one you are most likely to take lessons or get pointers on?"
I never gave any thought to my box key (C#/D) because my starter box a was a loaner from the local accordion pusher who plays C#/D and collects boxes and has one or two that he'll loan out to those thinking that they might want to play but don't want to shell out good money on something that might not work out.
John Williams has come to the Twin Cities on a number of occasions to give seminars and has made several comments about the plethora of C#/D players in the area (Paddy O'Brien excepted, of course, but rumour has it that he plays C#/D from time to time).
First comment at the first seminar I attended: If someone lobbed a grenade into this living room there wouldn't be ANY C#/D players in left in the upper Midwest. (There were about ten of us in that room.)
Second comment from another seminar: It's just odd that there is such a concentration of C#/D players in one area. (I'll assume that he meant in the USA.)
I played diatonic harmonica long before I even knew what a button accordion was, so it made more sense for me to learn on C#/D than B/C because I could already play tunes the same way a D harp works.
I never gave any thought to my box key (C#/D) because my starter box a was a loaner from the local accordion pusher who plays C#/D and collects boxes and has one or two that he'll loan out to those thinking that they might want to play but don't want to shell out good money on something that might not work out.
John Williams has come to the Twin Cities on a number of occasions to give seminars and has made several comments about the plethora of C#/D players in the area (Paddy O'Brien excepted, of course, but rumour has it that he plays C#/D from time to time).
First comment at the first seminar I attended: If someone lobbed a grenade into this living room there wouldn't be ANY C#/D players in left in the upper Midwest. (There were about ten of us in that room.)
Second comment from another seminar: It's just odd that there is such a concentration of C#/D players in one area. (I'll assume that he meant in the USA.)
I played diatonic harmonica long before I even knew what a button accordion was, so it made more sense for me to learn on C#/D than B/C because I could already play tunes the same way a D harp works.
Yes, Paddy does play on a C#/D from time to time.-
Dave Parkhurst
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StevieJ
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Hi Claudine,
Someone has been sowing doubts in your mind, am I right?
The conventional wisdom is that playing B/C you use the bellows less, at least in common keys for Irish music. This is mainly because you have longer passages of legato notes - particularly the fact that you can play A B C# D E without changing bellows direction. (On a C#/D the same is true of B C# D# E F#, which only comes in handy in the key of E).
But it's all swings and roundabouts as they say. It seems to me (from my limited experimentation with learning tunes in B/C fingering) that the keys of D and particularly Em are easier on a C#/D. Playing in D on a B/C, you have to deal with the fact that a simple arpeggio of D requires you to change bellows direction for one note - the F#. This seems totally perverse when you first start!
I'd say that the fingerings on a C#/D are easier to get your head (and your hands) around when you begin, but that yes you will be pumping the bellows a bit more often in some passages. But I think that in the long run things work themselves out.
For playing in G, on a standard 8-bass C#/D box there is no C chord, which is really dumb. (A thirdless A chord will do the job a lot of the time.) But then on a B/C box there is typically no Bm or F#m bass, which is similarly dumb.
Hope all this helps,
Steve
Someone has been sowing doubts in your mind, am I right?
It all depends on the key you're playing in. As Rob G pointed out somewhere on this board, they're really the same instrument... for example, playing a tune in A on a C#/D, you are using exactly the same fingering you would use to play the same tune in G on a B/C.claudine wrote:- Is it easier to play fast jigs and reels on a B/C than on a C#/D?
The conventional wisdom is that playing B/C you use the bellows less, at least in common keys for Irish music. This is mainly because you have longer passages of legato notes - particularly the fact that you can play A B C# D E without changing bellows direction. (On a C#/D the same is true of B C# D# E F#, which only comes in handy in the key of E).
But it's all swings and roundabouts as they say. It seems to me (from my limited experimentation with learning tunes in B/C fingering) that the keys of D and particularly Em are easier on a C#/D. Playing in D on a B/C, you have to deal with the fact that a simple arpeggio of D requires you to change bellows direction for one note - the F#. This seems totally perverse when you first start!
I'd say that the fingerings on a C#/D are easier to get your head (and your hands) around when you begin, but that yes you will be pumping the bellows a bit more often in some passages. But I think that in the long run things work themselves out.
No, I don't think so. Again, depends what keys you're playing in. But listen to Martin O Connor - that should put your mind at rest.- Is the B/C more versatile and easier to play than the C#/D?
Possibly, maybe someone who's better at basses than I am can address this. As far as I can see or hear, there do seem to be more good bass hands among C#/D players than B/C.- Does the C#/D offer more opportunities to play bass/chords/harmonies in D major and G major tunes?
For playing in G, on a standard 8-bass C#/D box there is no C chord, which is really dumb. (A thirdless A chord will do the job a lot of the time.) But then on a B/C box there is typically no Bm or F#m bass, which is similarly dumb.
Hope all this helps,
Steve
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StevieJ
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PS Claudine I've decided I want a B/C myself. But mainly for the mellow pleasure of playing everything a tone down.
I spent the weekend at an epic music party thrown by a B/C player friend of mine and as usual we both grabbed each other's boxes whenever possible. He seems to enjoy the sound of my 3-medium-voice C#/D, and I like experimenting with the sound combinations his 4-voice box (LMMH) .
For playing lazy tunes on a Sunday morning after two late consecutive nights of music, a B/C played as if it were C#/D is just the thing. Until others want to join in with you, of course. (An A/Bb would be even better...)
BTW this is what Josephine Marsh does a lot of the time: plays a B/C box using C#/D fingering. You'll find a lot of players "crossing over" occasionally. For instance I have clips of B/C players playing D tunes in C - Billy McComiskey (Humours of Tulla) and Raymond Roland (Bucks of Oranmore), and I believe that Joe Burke's influential recording of Bonnie Kate was in C too, although I haven't heard it.
Sporting Nell and New Mown Meadows are both easier to play "on the pull", so you'll find B/C players doing them in D and C#/D players doing them in E. Yesterday a fiddler started playing The Holly Bush in E major, and when I asked him why, he said he'd learned it from a Sharon Shannon recording. In other words, she was playing it B/C style on a C#/D box. So I tried it last night in E and it was a bit easier - nice flow to it.
Out on the Ocean, Foxhunter's Reel, Miss McLeod's and other tunes are commonly played in both G and A, so learn both keys on your C#/D and you'll be able to play them in G on a B/C box. And in F too, which will surprise everybody...
So that's why I think that if you keep at the half-step box you'll end up being able to play both systems anyway!
Steve
I spent the weekend at an epic music party thrown by a B/C player friend of mine and as usual we both grabbed each other's boxes whenever possible. He seems to enjoy the sound of my 3-medium-voice C#/D, and I like experimenting with the sound combinations his 4-voice box (LMMH) .
For playing lazy tunes on a Sunday morning after two late consecutive nights of music, a B/C played as if it were C#/D is just the thing. Until others want to join in with you, of course. (An A/Bb would be even better...)
BTW this is what Josephine Marsh does a lot of the time: plays a B/C box using C#/D fingering. You'll find a lot of players "crossing over" occasionally. For instance I have clips of B/C players playing D tunes in C - Billy McComiskey (Humours of Tulla) and Raymond Roland (Bucks of Oranmore), and I believe that Joe Burke's influential recording of Bonnie Kate was in C too, although I haven't heard it.
Sporting Nell and New Mown Meadows are both easier to play "on the pull", so you'll find B/C players doing them in D and C#/D players doing them in E. Yesterday a fiddler started playing The Holly Bush in E major, and when I asked him why, he said he'd learned it from a Sharon Shannon recording. In other words, she was playing it B/C style on a C#/D box. So I tried it last night in E and it was a bit easier - nice flow to it.
Out on the Ocean, Foxhunter's Reel, Miss McLeod's and other tunes are commonly played in both G and A, so learn both keys on your C#/D and you'll be able to play them in G on a B/C box. And in F too, which will surprise everybody...
So that's why I think that if you keep at the half-step box you'll end up being able to play both systems anyway!
Steve