Starting on harmonica

We have some evidence, however, that you may have to pay for the reeds.
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Azalin
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by Azalin »

SteveShaw wrote: Now if you think about Irish tunes in general, most fit well on limited-range instruments such as D whistles and D wooden flutes. On these instruments you can play nearly all the tunes because they don't go below the tonic D. This means that on D harps you seldom have problems with the missing notes in the bottom octave because the tunes don't go down that far.
Well, yeah. One of the reason I picked concertina is because you could play lower notes, like the famous low A at the start of Farewell to Ireland, low B in Wynne's #1 and #2 etc. But it's not a big deal.
SteveShaw wrote: On G tunes, on the other hand, you often want to go down to the D below the tonic G. On the harmonica that would be 3-blow. That on its own is no problem, but if you also need to play the E in that octave you'd be stumped - unless your harp was a Paddy, with its 3-blow tuned up to E and the 2-draw left as the D note. Get it? :)
You are saying that a diatonic G doesn't have the E below 'standard octave' G by default? Well, that *is* unplayable! I need a Paddy for sure then, I mean, doesn't 99% of G tunes have D and E and F# in then below that G? Maybe I don't understand it right :boggle:
SteveShaw wrote:
Also, on the concertina there are many duplicate notes that allow you to play some combinations easier... won't a missing duplicate note be a handicap?
Good question. On a chromatic harp you have a number of duplicated notes (enharmonic notes). A skilled player can use this to their advantage by smoothing out passages which otherwise would have a lot of air direction changes (huffing and puffing, in other words!) On a melodeon you would use the duplicates to select the best note to play for the chord/bass you wanted to play. BUT...I happen to think that the huffing and puffing constant air-direction changes on 10-hole harps, far from being a liability, can be turned into an asset. Smoothing things out all the time can have its merits, but I like that pulsating rhythmic feel you can get with all that blow/draw...
That's funny, because you are pretty much reflecting the endless debate in concertina world of Anglo concertina (push/pull) versus English. Some people argue anglo is better for irish music becayse it forces you to push/pull instead of having everything 'smoothed' out. I think it's a bit irrelevant because if you don't know how irish music should sound, you're going to sound bad, on an anglo or an english. Also, on the anglo, you use the alternate buttons often to play triplets, where push/pull would slow it down and wouldn't sound as nice, for example.
SteveShaw wrote:
Finally, there a bunch of nices D tunes with both C# and CNat in the tune, I guess you can't really play those with a diatonic?
Tricky. There are a few such tunes (Jenny's Wedding springs to mind), and on a D harp you just can't get that Cnat even with a bend. A chrom would be the answer, or you could get a Hohner XB40 - a diatonic (at a price of course) that is set up to enable every note to be bent. I hate the buggers meself, but your mileage may vary, as they say!
There's actually many, many good D tunes with both C# and C in irish music. The Collier's Jig (not sure about the reel), Banish Misfortune, The Scartaglen reel, Pipe on the Hob jig etc etc.. But I guess this is something I can live with. That's one advantage for the whistle, you get that C *and* C# with cross fingering, equivalent to your note bending, but it works on all whistles (expect maybe the Sindt, where the C nat is sharp!).

Thanks again, very insightful!
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by apache »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbJ84ESfKOs - here's Brendan Power with a chromatic harmonica.

I think the absense of the blow/draw harmonica sound makes it sound closer to a concertina/accordion.
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Re: Starting on harmonica

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Azalin wrote:You are saying that a diatonic G doesn't have the E below 'standard octave' G by default? Well, that *is* unplayable! I need a Paddy for sure then, I mean, doesn't 99% of G tunes have D and E and F# in then below that G? Maybe I don't understand it right :boggle:
The standard-tuned 10-hole harp in G is indeed lacking the E in the lowest octave. That tuning allows the player to play full tonic (blow) and dominant (draw) chords over three holes, and provides an essential draw note for bluesmen to bend at 2-draw. Irish needs are different, which is why the one reed change represented by Paddy Richter is so useful. If you think about the tuning of a D whistle, the standard blues harp tuning would be equivalent to the OXX XXX note being absent in the lower octave. That note is crucial in an awful lot of G tunes (dunno about 99%!), as even crap whistle owners like me realise (the whistles are fine, it's me who's crap!)
Some people argue anglo is better for irish music becayse it forces you to push/pull instead of having everything 'smoothed' out. I think it's a bit irrelevant because if you don't know how irish music should sound, you're going to sound bad, on an anglo or an english.
Agreed. I sometimes think that the smoothness that a piano accordion can achieve, combined with that swelling of longer notes in the middle that some players employ, is part of the reason the instrument is often detested by players of other instruments... It is all down to the player getting his/her feet properly under the Irish table, as you suggest, no matter what their instrument is. It would be hard to knock the smoothness of a Matt Molloy... :D I think perhaps that fluency and timing should be the watchwords...
There's actually many, many good D tunes with both C# and C in irish music. The Collier's Jig (not sure about the reel), Banish Misfortune, The Scartaglen reel, Pipe on the Hob jig etc etc.. But I guess this is something I can live with. That's one advantage for the whistle, you get that C *and* C# with cross fingering, equivalent to your note bending, but it works on all whistles (expect maybe the Sindt, where the C nat is sharp!).
Yep, "Banish." Another awkward one. The trouble with the D tunes with both Cnats and C#s is that the Cnat would have to be obtained on a blues harp by bending. The note you'd have to bend would be 7-draw, and that's impossible because you can only bend the higher note in each hole, and that 7-draw note is the lower... :evil: Out with the chromatic!
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by SteveShaw »

apache wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbJ84ESfKOs - here's Brendan Power with a chromatic harmonica.

I think the absense of the blow/draw harmonica sound makes it sound closer to a concertina/accordion.
The first two tunes are perfectly playable on a standard D 10-hole harp (I don't know the last one :oops:). I do it all the time. Just thought I'd mention it. Of course, the ornamentation wouldn't be the same as Brendan's, but I don't necessarily think that has to be a disadvantage... I'm a 10-hole freak and always will be! By the way, he's blowing and drawing almost as much as you would on a 10-hole. He's just very good at it!
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by apache »

Ok.

Just checked out your playing over at harmonica.co.uk. Awesome.
Makes me realize that the change of sound when blowing/drawing hasn't got much to do with diatonic vs. chromatic.
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by StevieJ »

SteveShaw wrote:The standard-tuned 10-hole harp in G is indeed lacking the E in the lowest octave. That tuning allows the player to play full tonic (blow) and dominant (draw) chords over three holes, and provides an essential draw note for bluesmen to bend at 2-draw.
Amazingly. this pattern is carried over on most diatonic accordions. Yer average one-row in D, for example, will not have the low B on the draw, but a duplicated low A. And on yer average D/G box, not only will this B be missing on the D row, but the "low" E will be missing from the G row. I don't know if this arrangement is of much use to diatonic players not doing Irish music, but for anyone that does want to play Irish tunes, it's most inconvenient to put it mildly.

I recently persuaded a student of mine to have this fixed on his very fine and very expensive Cajun-style one-row accordion - changing the extra A to a B - and dozens if not hundreds more tunes are now immediately available to him.
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by Azalin »

Steve, what do you think of Seydel, is it known to be of good quality? In Canada there's an online shop that sells Paddy tuning:

http://www.musicianswebstore.com/prodde ... 06&cat=172

It's quite expensive but I'm not going to do any tuning myself, I got my hands full with unfrequent concertina interventions!

There is *no* question I need that missing note on the G harp.

I'm not sure if/when I'll buy it, but meanwhile I need to convince you to fly over here for a lesson or two ;-)
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by Azalin »

The Seydel "deluxe" version has an aluminium comb, and the "session" version has a plastic comb. The plastic one is 35 euros, the aluminium one is 60 euros. What is the main difference? Durability? Sound?
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by SteveShaw »

StevieJ wrote:
SteveShaw wrote:The standard-tuned 10-hole harp in G is indeed lacking the E in the lowest octave. That tuning allows the player to play full tonic (blow) and dominant (draw) chords over three holes, and provides an essential draw note for bluesmen to bend at 2-draw.
Amazingly. this pattern is carried over on most diatonic accordions. Yer average one-row in D, for example, will not have the low B on the draw, but a duplicated low A. And on yer average D/G box, not only will this B be missing on the D row, but the "low" E will be missing from the G row. I don't know if this arrangement is of much use to diatonic players not doing Irish music, but for anyone that does want to play Irish tunes, it's most inconvenient to put it mildly.
I think all those country dance and Morris types are more than happy with it, but I bought a D/G Erica, hoping to learn it for Irish tunes, and found that tuning to be a big disincentive. As a matter of fact I never get the thing out these days. Maybe I should look into a retuning. I wouldn't tackle such an unfamiliar instrument myself...
Oddly, Hohner also use that tuning in their Echo tremolo harps. Heaven knows why. It seems pointless, and other tremolo manufacturers just put all the notes in. Tremolos are hardly blues instruments! Unless you know different of course...
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by Whistling Archer »

3 answers from 3 different steves ,, your jinxed from the start, might as well start playing the triangle :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/user/sjeter61
My tunes , if you're interested
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Re: Starting on harmonica

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Azalin wrote:Steve, what do you think of Seydel, is it known to be of good quality? In Canada there's an online shop that sells Paddy tuning:

http://www.musicianswebstore.com/prodde ... 06&cat=172

It's quite expensive but I'm not going to do any tuning myself, I got my hands full with unfrequent concertina interventions!

There is *no* question I need that missing note on the G harp.

I'm not sure if/when I'll buy it, but meanwhile I need to convince you to fly over here for a lesson or two ;-)
I've never owned a Seydel harp, unfortunately. They have a reasonable name I think but they were charging more for alternative tunings last time I checked (a while back). For people's harp experiences you could hardly do better than look at the Harp-L archives (or join up and ask!) http://harp-l.org/pipermail/harp-l

Edited to add: Just look how much more they charge for the Paddy harp. That's a huge extra wad just for one reed change. I don't like that! It takes me two minutes with my little rotary drill.
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Re: Starting on harmonica

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SteveShaw wrote: Edited to add: Just look how much more they charge for the Paddy harp. That's a huge extra wad just for one reed change. I don't like that! It takes me two minutes with my little rotary drill.
That's because you haven't read my most recent post. They charge 60 euros for the *aluminium* comb version, and 35 euros for the *plastic* comb version. Seems reasonable. I was wondering what's the main difference between aluminium comb and plastic comb for a harmonica?
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by StevieJ »

Easy. Sucking on aluminium may lead to Alzheimer's. Sucking on plastic could cause liver damage or any number of cancers. Take your pick....
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Re: Starting on harmonica

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My view on comb materials is unswerving and uncompromising. Buy harps with plastic combs. They are cheaper and lighter than metal and just as good. They don't swell/crack/hurt your lips like wood, and are just as good. The comb does not affect the sound. Well-gapped reeds on an airtight body (most likely with plastic) will provide the potential for a good, loud, clear sound. But 99% of it is down to you. A harmonica is merely a holder of vibrating reeds in streams of air. Neither the reeds nor the construction materials of the harp add any elements of quality. What makes the sound is you - your embouchure and the airway you provide all the way down to your diaphragm. Plastic is a beautiful word. :)
"Last night, among his fellow roughs,
He jested, quaff'd and swore."

They cut me down and I leapt up high
I am the life that'll never, never die.
I'll live in you if you'll live in me -
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Re: Starting on harmonica

Post by Azalin »

The owner of http://www.elkriverharmonicas.com can do all sort of custom work and has many models in stock, here's what he sent me:
It would be $7 for first class shipping for one harp, priority mail is $12. There's several options, the Seydel G Paddy Richter is available in the Session for $39.95 and the Favorite is $59.95.
AND
I can make any regular (plain Richter) harmonica a Paddy Richter for an extra $6. Thus, the a Session Paddy Richter would be $35.95 if I do it. This also makes it possible to get Paddy Richter harmonica in any Seydel you want, including the 1847.

Dave
Seems fair!!

EDIT: Steve, what harmonica would you suggest, now that it seems I can acquire pretty much anything from this man?
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