bouzouki

[Wombat]

.......
Is there any reason why an Irish bouzouki could not be tuned

1-4-1-4 which = 5-1-5-1 (other than the "reason" that one may need a different gauge string for the last course) ?

None whatsoever. ..................

So what's your problem with D G D G then?

It's either a fifth too sharp or a fouth too flat. If you want it sharp, a mandola would probably be OK for that tuning. You can always detune a bouzouki I suppose, but detubning is done for a special effect so I assume you aren't talking about that. There is usually no point in tuning up or down to the point where you encroach on the territory of some other instrument in the family. If that's what you want, buy that instrument rather than a bouzouki.

[talasiga]

You had no problems with 1-4-1-4 which = 5-1-5-1
but you have a problem with D-G-D-G (a 1-4-1-4)?
(because its moving into mandola territory?)

Well which is the lowest note that 1 could be in a 1-4-1-4 tuning and still remain in "Irish bouzouki territory"?

[talasiga]

......
You can always detune a bouzouki I suppose, but detubning is done for a special effect so I assume you aren't talking about that.
.......

This is a convenient or an inconvenient assumption depending on point of view.


Like, I want an Irish bouzouki to play and tune it as is normally done with it AND also I would like to tune it D G D G for a SPECIAL purpose and I am trying to ask someone with experience if this would be possible and workable and I am being told it would be better to get another instrument to do it unless I am doing it for a special effect in which case its OK?

[Wombat]

You had no problems with 1-4-1-4 which = 5-1-5-1
but you have a problem with D-G-D-G (a 1-4-1-4)?
(because its moving into mandola territory?)

Well which is the lowest note that 1 could be in a 1-4-1-4 tuning and still remain in "Irish bouzouki territory"?

What is it you're not getting? I'm not against bouzoukis encroaching on mandola territory because that would be musical imperialism. Stringed instruments have the standard tunings they do because they are designed that way. Tune them too sharp and the strings snap or the neck warps. Tune them too flat and they become flaccid.

If you want to depart from the standard tuning, and many people do, then mostly slight tuning down is preferred to tuning up. More dramatic departures are possible but it is pointless just running through one suggestion after another; learn to play the instrument as it is designed to be played and then argue the toss or experiment when you understand the instrument—i.e., understand tensions, actions, sound boxes, neck scale, bracing and so on. An Irish 'zouk would be tuned G, D, A, E or G, D, A, D. There are no hard and fast rules for how much sharper or flatter you can go; that varies from instrument to instrument but as a rough and ready guide, down a step or a step and a half shouldn't be a problem.

Other than that, consult a luthier. Changing courses around isn't a problem if they are high courses; if they are low you are likely to strain the neck. Really unusual combinations are likely to run into the problems I've been outlining in reply to specific suggestions.

OK, let's apply these principles. G, D, G, D should work fine since only the A course is tuned down a step from one of the standard Irish tunings. F# should work but I'd go for medium to heavy guage strings and F might work—but the top two courses would be tuned down two whole steps. Unless you want the instrument to sound obviously detuned, anything lower than that would not appeal to me. But, since you would be tuning down, you couldn't harm the instrument by trying.

[Nanohedron]

Tal, get a gizmo and play with the tunings. Think of it as research. Nothing pays off as much as empirical evidence based on what it is you're after in the first place. Bandying about relative interval theory on the 'net is no substitute for direct experience.

What would you be trying to accomplish? If ITM backup, an inversion (GDAD) gives many options and sounds appropriate indeed. It's also not too hard to play melody with that tuning. If all you have in mind is melody only, it oughtn't matter whether tuning is in fourths or fifths.

What will count is what you use as the primary drone. For my money, D is non-negotiable if that is the base tonic of the other instruments. I know this one fellow who tunes in fifths but usually plays backup, and his designated drone is G. Sounds terrible and dissociated from the music. His reasoning is that as G is a major fourth to D, it is automatically serviceable in all cases. It isn't, but he doesn't seem to hear it. Dronewise, tunes in E or A are more problematic with GDAD tuning, so you deal with it. Bar chords are one way, but I usually avoid them.

Now if your goal is something more along the lines of Asian music forms, who knows what tunings would be best? Not me, not without hands-on trial and error. Another issue is fret placement. The Turkic saz, for example, is usually not fretted in the same way as the 'zouk (Greek or Irish) is, which is to say in regular half steps. Same for the sitar.

[talasiga]

Tal........
Now if your goal is something more along the lines of Asian music forms, who knows what tunings would be best? Not me, not without hands-on trial and error. Another issue is fret placement. The Turkic saz, for example, is usually not fretted in the same way as the 'zouk (Greek or Irish) is, which is to say in regular half steps. Same for the sitar.

I am sure I have heard Raag Bhairav (middle eastern and greek: Hejaz) and Bhairavi (Phrygian Mode) on Greek bouzoukis. So have the Greeks playing them.

Anyone can get a Irish flute and play E Kaafi (South Asian term) scale by playing E to E+ on it. Its Dorian and common to both Asia and Europe. Not everything outside of Europe is exclusively non Euro.

Now, all I am asking before I buy the feckin thing or travel hundreds of miles to someone who has one, is this:


If I tuned an Irish 'zouk D G D G would it work? All yer have to say is something like,
"No, mate, it will be too high/low for the instrument as in the strings will be too taut/wobbly etc"
OR
" Yes, baba, it will work but you will need different gauge strings for the courses, ones that are not normally used on that instrument. Also, you won't be able quickly retune for ITM etc etc".

I do not need a badly constructed lecture.

[talasiga]

......learn to play the instrument as it is designed to be played and then argue the toss or experiment when you understand the instrument........

Be careful how you say this to the DADGAD guitarists.
I doubt there are any who studied under Segovia first.

[Wombat]

......learn to play the instrument as it is designed to be played and then argue the toss or experiment when you understand the instrument........

Be careful how you say this to the DADGAD guitarists.
I doubt there are any who studied under Segovia first.

The DADGAD guitarists who have been following this thread will know exactly why I said that. If you want better answers than you think you've been getting from us, I suggest you try your luck in the Mandolin Cafe. You might meet someone there who thinks more like you.

[Lorenzo]

You can tune your bouzouki however you'd like...just make sure you get the right gauge strings to match the tension. I had my Gibson mandola tuned down to a standard octave mandolin for years, before I got an octave mando. I just got larger strings. There was no more tension than with the right mandola strings, in fact probably a little less. I've also have my Gibson mandola tuned up to the pitch of a standard mandolin. WOW! What a tone that produced. I just got thinner gauged strings to match the right tension needed to produce the right tone and volume. You could even tune your zouk up to a standard mandolin if you had thin enough strings! Yikes!

The reason why it's important to only tune up or down one step or so, ie, travelling performers, is they often use different tunings for different tunes and they can't be changing strings for that! Most strings lose their tone quality when lowered more than a step, and like Wombat says, they'll do damge to the instrument if tuned too tight.

[talasiga]

You can tune your bouzouki however you'd like...just make sure you get the right gauge strings to match the tension. .........

Lorenzo, thanks for your succinct, helpful and friendly summary which includes a reference to Wombat's point in a way that contextualises it in a broader comprehension and helps me appreciate him.

Wishing you all a peaceful holiday season without me for the next 7 days or so.

Thank you Wombat for your advice also about Aussie whistle makers this past year. Erle's whistles make my day every day.

Goodbye now>

[Wombat]

Wishing you all a peaceful holiday season without me for the next 7 days or so.

Best wishes to you too.

Thank you Wombat for your advice also about Aussie whistle makers this past year. Erle's whistles make my day every day.

Goodbye now>

I'm really pleased you like them. You've just reminded me I owe Erle a call again soon.