bouzouki

[Joseph E. Smith]

I couldn't find one back in the early 80's so I made one (center). I styled it after the Gibson mandos except it has X-bracing and round sound hole..

Nice work Lorenzo, at first glance I thought it was a Gibson. A good friend of mine plays a Gibson mandocello that I have been drooling over for years now.

[Lorenzo]

Thanks Joseph, it was the most fun thing I've ever done--I totally lost track of time...and food, money, religion, politics, and women.

Hey, you might like a shot of my new acoustic bass guitar. It's really a riot and the body is HUGE. It sounds better than any ½ size upright bass I've ever played. A friend of mine in NE Oregon made it for me.


A better perspective of the body...

[talasiga]

Wombat, in my example (based on a real desire), I would want the lower courses to allow G Phrygian lines such that we can, more or less, cover 2 octaves from the 5th (D) below the tonic to the 5th above the tonic octave.
IE.
top course > G tonic drone
2nd course > D dominant drone
3rd course > (my socalled) middle D melody course
bottom course > high D melody course.

Other than being practicable though "eccentric" as you say, would this sound nice? (Triadic+ chords are not a prominent consideration for me).

You're losing me in these speculations a bit.

[ and then, 2 paragraphgs later ..........]

I take it what you are really asking is whether an ordinary zouk could be adapted to a tuning like this. Whether it is a viable idea depends on things that could only be tested by trying.
...................

Yep. I'm afraid so - as simple as that is exactly what I have asked. Could you test it on your "zouk"?

[Wombat]

Wombat, in my example (based on a real desire), I would want the lower courses to allow G Phrygian lines such that we can, more or less, cover 2 octaves from the 5th (D) below the tonic to the 5th above the tonic octave.
IE.
top course > G tonic drone
2nd course > D dominant drone
3rd course > (my socalled) middle D melody course
bottom course > high D melody course.

Other than being practicable though "eccentric" as you say, would this sound nice? (Triadic+ chords are not a prominent consideration for me).

You're losing me in these speculations a bit.

[ and then, 2 paragraphgs later ..........]

I take it what you are really asking is whether an ordinary zouk could be adapted to a tuning like this. Whether it is a viable idea depends on things that could only be tested by trying.
...................

Yep. I'm afraid so - as simple as that is exactly what I have asked. Could you test it on your "zouk"?

Not really. The first 3 courses you suggest are similar to the way it is currently tuned with the middle D course where the A course would normally be. But I have no way of finding a course that would give me high D on a zouk. If I simply tried to tune up a middle D (E) course, the strings would snap long before I got even close.

[talasiga]

Not really. The first 3 courses you suggest are similar to the way it is currently tuned with the middle D course where the A course would normally be. But I have no way of finding a course that would give me high D on a zouk. If I simply tried to tune up a middle D (E) course, the strings would snap long before I got even close.

Thank you for your very precise, relevant, practical and non-academic answer. I appreciate it.

So now, on these bottom "melody courses" (my middle D and my rejected "high D") how would you set that last course so that it continues the G tonic phrygian mode from the 3rd course?
For instance the middle course gives me
dominant
flattened 6th
flattened 7th
tonic (of the melody middle octave)
flattened 2nd
flattened 3rd
sub dominant
dominant
up to ? (any more frets?)

[Wombat]

Not really. The first 3 courses you suggest are similar to the way it is currently tuned with the middle D course where the A course would normally be. But I have no way of finding a course that would give me high D on a zouk. If I simply tried to tune up a middle D (E) course, the strings would snap long before I got even close.

Thank you for your very precise, relevant, practical and non-academic answer. I appreciate it.

So now, on these bottom "melody courses" (my middle D and my rejected "high D") how would you set that last course so that it continues the G tonic phrygian mode from the 3rd course?
For instance the middle course gives me
dominant
flattened 6th
flattened 7th
tonic (of the melody middle octave)
flattened 2nd
flattened 3rd
sub dominant
dominant
up to ? (any more frets?)

My other answers were just as practical. Understanding the problems faced in bouzouki design is critical to coming up with sensible ideas for tunings. Also, I don't know how better to describe a dreadnaught that's boomy in the low mids than to say just that. Too loud in first position on the bottom two strings? Or, when you play the lower strings down the bottom it goes blah blah?

You describe a zouk going up to the 12th fret. I have an electric which is easily playable right up to the 17th or 18th fret which would get you up to the high tonic. I wouldn't go for a weird tuning if I wanted to get the range you want, I'd rely on playing up the neck. I'd tune it G, D, G, D which is very close to the most common Irish tuning G, D, A, D.

If you absolutely must get something higher than mid D on the top course, I'd go for the G above and use extra light guage strings. They could be tuned up to E without concern and some Irish players do. You'd need to tune them three half steps higher still. Check with a luthier before trying something like this. Any serious attempt to tune up or extend the range for which the instrument is designed could put too much strain on the neck.

[talasiga]

.
.........
You describe a zouk going up to the 12th fret.
.........

Really? Why would I do that? I think I was posing questions (wasn't I?)


Hmm?

[Wombat]

.
.........
You describe a zouk going up to the 12th fret.
.........

Really? Why would I do that? I think I was posing questions (wasn't I?)


Hmm?

Almost all questions have presuppositions. They are sometimes implicit and sometimes explicity statements from earlier in the conversation.

You explicitly described how things would go up to the 12th fret, just as I said. You then asked a question concerning what if anything happens next which I answered.

What am I missing that has you so confused?

[talasiga]

.....
What am I missing that has you so confused?

You may be missing that it is you who is confused because your suppositions about my "presuppostions" may in fact be impositions
on the facts.

AS is patent from my posts, some of which EXPLICITLY say that I do not have any experience with chordophonic stringy thingies (other than dulcimers), I know nothing about bouzoukis other than I likem.

If I were Wombat, who like Darwin, has experience of stringy thingies, I would answer Talasiga's question according to this (or similar) framework:

The Irish bouzouki has XXX frets and to obtain the range of notes on the bottom string courses (your proposed melody courses) you would need to set them at XXX and XXX .

[talasiga]

Wombat, in my example (based on a real desire), I would want the lower courses to allow G Phrygian lines such that we can, more or less, cover 2 octaves from the 5th (D) below the tonic to the 5th above the tonic octave.
IE.
top course > G tonic drone
2nd course > D dominant drone
3rd course > (my socalled) middle D melody course
bottom course > high D melody course.

Other than being practicable though "eccentric" as you say, would this sound nice? (Triadic+ chords are not a prominent consideration for me).

A CUT TO THE CHASE ANSWER WOULD HAVE BEEN:-

No, talibaba, you don't need to do this. The instrument has 18 frets that are playable so you would set your lower melody course at D and the highest one at G to do what you want.

[Wombat]

Wombat, in my example (based on a real desire), I would want the lower courses to allow G Phrygian lines such that we can, more or less, cover 2 octaves from the 5th (D) below the tonic to the 5th above the tonic octave.
IE.
top course > G tonic drone
2nd course > D dominant drone
3rd course > (my socalled) middle D melody course
bottom course > high D melody course.

Other than being practicable though "eccentric" as you say, would this sound nice? (Triadic+ chords are not a prominent consideration for me).

A CUT TO THE CHASE ANSWER WOULD HAVE BEEN:-

No, talibaba, you don't need to do this. The instrument has 18 frets that are playable so you would set your lower melody course at D and the highest one at G to do what you want.

Well I could have said that. But I have misgivings about tuning the highest course up to G and it wouldn't make much sense merely saying so without explaining why. Furthermore, the instrument mightn't have 18 usable frets; most accoustics wouldn't have.

I realise that you don't have experience of stringed instruments which is why I'm supplying some of the background you need to explore them. Once you understand some of the ever present design problems, you can figure out for yourself what might work and what probably won't. You don't have to approach each idea on an ad hoc basis.

[talasiga]

....

I played a Greek bouzouki about 35-40 years ago. It had three courses and was tuned 1-5-1, like a mountain dulcimer. It was a very fancy bowl-back, with a pickup in the soundhole, and belonged to a professional musician.

Is there any reason why an Irish bouzouki could not be tuned

1-4-1-4 which = 5-1-5-1 (other than the "reason" that one may need a different gauge string for the last course) ?

[Wombat]

....

I played a Greek bouzouki about 35-40 years ago. It had three courses and was tuned 1-5-1, like a mountain dulcimer. It was a very fancy bowl-back, with a pickup in the soundhole, and belonged to a professional musician.

Is there any reason why an Irish bouzouki could not be tuned

1-4-1-4 which = 5-1-5-1 (other than the "reason" that one may need a different gauge string for the last course) ?

None whatsoever. The 'standard' tuning for any instrument in the mandolin family is in fifths. Any tuning which compresses the range will present no problem. It's in extending the range that serious problems begin to appear. An old-style Greek bouzouki isn't really much like a mandolin or a guitar in several respects but the kind of tuning described by Darwin was common.

[talasiga]

.......
Is there any reason why an Irish bouzouki could not be tuned

1-4-1-4 which = 5-1-5-1 (other than the "reason" that one may need a different gauge string for the last course) ?

None whatsoever. ..................

So what's your problem with D G D G then?

[Joseph E. Smith]

Hey, you might like a shot of my new acoustic bass guitar. It's really a riot and the body is HUGE. It sounds better than any ½ size upright bass I've ever played. A friend of mine in NE Oregon made it for me.


A better perspective of the body...

Very nice! I used to own a Guild bass guitar, and it was a blast to play... but a bear to find good quality strings for that actually fit the beast!

Your friend does nice work.