LANCE ARMSTRONG

[Loren]

Tell me honestly: if Armstrong wasn't American, none of you guys would even notice (except perhaps Loren: he can almost spell Eddie Merckx' name ).

Hey, cut me a break man, I'm typing with one eye tied behind my back, so to speak - my other eye suffered a corneal laceration on tuesday, so I can't see jack. Heck, I can barely cross the street without getting run over, let alone proof read my stinkin' posts!

Sure Bill, you have a point, however the sport has changed over the years, most of the top riders now all focus on the tour, although perhaps not as single mindedly as Lance. It's not like Lance has simply scraped by in beating his rivals in the tours, he's clearly head and shoulders above the rest. Could you, honestly Bill, make a strong argument to suggest that Lance is not the most well conditioned and strongest (overall) cyclist of all time?

Loren

[BillChin]

Tell me honestly: if Armstrong wasn't American, none of you guys would even notice (except perhaps Loren: he can almost spell Eddie Merckx' name ).

Sure Bill, you have a point, however the sport has changed over the years, most of the top riders now all focus on the tour, although perhaps not as single mindedly as Lance. It's not like Lance has simply scraped by in beating his rivals in the tours, he's clearly head and shoulders above the rest. Could you, honestly Bill, make a strong argument to suggest that Lance is not the most well conditioned and strongest (overall) cyclist of all time?

Loren

Actually, I think Armstrong's total focus on the Tour has some other riders focusing their season on other major races, because the odds are better. Why fight Goliath on his sacred territory, when there are other races that Goliath is not interested in?

As you say, nutrition, equipment, weight training are all different today. So if you are talking purely conditioning, I concede your point, Armstrong is the strongest. As with most other sports, today's competitors are bigger, stronger, faster than their historical counterparts. However, in terms of race wins, pure intimidation, and competitiveness, I believe most cycling fans would put Armstrong down the list, not at the top for all time. Again, Armstrong dominates for three weeks of the year, and uses the rest of the year to prepare for those three weeks.

Americans with their parochial view would skew any kind of survey. I believe that there are probably less than a million cycling fans (vs. Lance Armstrong fans) in the whole United States. To put that number in perspective 900,000 people showed up to watch the Alpe d'Huez time trial.

Again, my analogy to other sports stands. If a tennis player wins Wimbledon seven straight times, but uses all the other events such as the U. S. Open, French Open, Australian Open as tune ups, would that player be considered the best tennis player of all time? If a golfer wins the Master's golf tournament year after year, but doesn't try to win any of the other major tournaments, would that golfer be considered the best of all time? The answer in my mind is a clear no. The readers can make up their own minds.
+ Bill

[Loren]

Well, if an athlete chooses only the toughest competition, whips everyone, every year, in that competetion......

You use tennis as an analogy, I'll use boxing: If the world heavyweight champ fights the top contenders in the world, in 15 round bouts, goes undefeated, and essentially knocks out every contender, then who cares if he only defends his title once a year?

The sport has become such that that's the way it works, regardless of how many races there are every year, the top riders always make the tour the top priority, it's the heavyweight championship of the world.

I think it's very euro centric (and unrealistic) to say that someone like Hinault for example was tougher than than Lance, simply because he grimaced more during races, perhaps if he were better conditioned Lemond wouldn't have been forced to let him win the tour that year.....

Like you said though Bill, everyone will decide for themselves, and I suppose our opinions matter little.

Loren

[Bloomfield]

Tell me honestly: if Armstrong wasn't American, none of you guys would even notice (except perhaps Loren: he can almost spell Eddie Merckx' name ).

Hey, cut me a break man, I'm typing with one eye tied behind my back, so to speak - my other eye suffered a corneal laceration on tuesday, so I can't see jack. Heck, I can barely cross the street without getting run over, let alone proof read my stinkin' posts!

Just yanking your recorder, anyway. Sorry to hear about your eye.

The team aspect is really interesting, and it frankly makes a bit hard to bandy lables like "greatest of all time" about (no argument that Armstrong is among the contenders, though). Indurain for example could have had more years than he did. I forget what year it was, must have been early nineties, when he got off his bike and waited for something like two minutes for his team leader to catch up, while other team cyclists were passing him by.

[BillChin]

You use tennis as an analogy, I'll use boxing: If the world heavyweight champ fights the top contenders in the world, in 15 round bouts, goes undefeated, and essentially knocks out every contender, then who cares if he only defends his title once a year?
...

Like you said though Bill, everyone will decide for themselves, and I suppose our opinions matter little.

Loren

All right, let's take your boxing analogy, though it is something I know little about. That champion that defends his title once a year, and knocks everyone out, would definitely be the best in his era. But best all time? Perhaps, perhaps not. There is a strong argument against.

I still think tennis and golf make much better analogies, because there are there are major events and minor events, with one event clearly rated above the others in each sport, just like cycling. The Vuelta in cycling is comparable to the Australian Open in tennis, a major event by any standard, but clearly less of a prize than the Tour or Wimbledon.

I disagree that all the top racers focus on the Tour. Sure it is the biggest prize and has become more so in recent years. It is also the only race that gets any real media coverage in the States. A rider may plan to peak for the Tour. However, if a team leader is in serious contention in the Giro he may go all out to win that race. Even if digging deep early in the season may damage his Tour de France chances. Not so Lance, he would ease off, or in some years skip the Giro all together, with his sights on the Tour later in the year.
+ Bill

[Loren]

The reason tennis and golf analogies don't hold up is because they are not strength and endurance events: Tennis players and golfers don't significantly tear down their bodies from one event to the next, nor is maximum physical conditioning king when it comes to winning a title, rather technique rules the day in those sports.

I give Indurain his due, along with all the rest, however once can't say "Indurain could have....." who knows, the bottom line is, he did what he did, and nothing more or less. Lance's carrer is not over yet (as far as we know) and this year he looks stronger than ever.

I can certainly understand how many people are not yet ready to consider him the best of all time, if such a thing can even be said of any racer, but as a former professional athlete myself, I look at certain metrics and compare Lance to other cyclists:

Has any other althlete in cycling ever trained harder, more meticulously, or more consistently? No.

Has any other athlete in cycling ever been better conditioned (hard training in and of itself doesn't necessarily bring about that result)? No.

Has any other athlete in cycling over come more physical adversity (cancer in Lance's case) and still risen so high? No.

Has any other atlhete won the most competitive strength and endurance race in cycling more times? No.

Has any other athlete in cycling been stronger and faster in more aspects of racing (time trials, climbing, etc.) than Lance? No.

Has any racer in history been tougher mentally? Hard to measure, but if you ignore all the grimacing and discount suffering due to poor training......I believe you'd be hard pressed to come to an answer other than, No.

If one were to eliminate the team aspect (strictly theoretical here, but we can make an educated guess), is there any other cyclist in history that could likely beat Lance one on one over the course of the tour (see all the points above if in doubt), I am fairly certain the answer is, No.

Sure, as an American, I'm proud of Lance, but I judge his performace as a fellow athlete - you're not gonna hear me rally on about how great Mary Decker was, or Jim Ryan, or Steve Prefontain were, the fact is a Moroccan was the best middle distance runner in history, so my comments are little influenced by Lance's nationality.

Going back to analogies: Mark Spitz or...........?

Loren

[BillChin]

Loren, you made some excellent points. I continue to concede the point that Armstrong would beat the oldtimers head to head in their primes, just as I believe that the top young swimmers today would wax Mark Spitz in his prime. The new generation is faster, stronger, better prepared. What I will do is present the resumes and let the readers decide for themselves. Most Chiff readers have a good idea of Armstrong’s accomplishments, especially the cancer recovery, but like Bloomfield said, most probably can’t spell Eddy Merckx.

Looking at the two resumes, the most glaring difference is that Armstrong never seriously tried to win the Giro, the second biggest prize in cycling, and Merckx won it five times. Early in Armstrong’s career he was competitive in the classics, but at this point Lance is rarely a top contender in these races, even though several of them are late in the season and would not jeapordize his Tour training. The other thing to consider is that athletes age much better these days and that can account for greater longevity at top form.

Lance Armstrong Palmares
cancer survivor
6 times Tour de France winner (counting 2004)
20 stage wins in the Tour de France (counting four for 2004) including many of the most prestigious mountain stages
Midi Libre,
Dauphine Libere,
Tour of Switzerland,
GP Eddy Merckx,
GP des Nations,
Fleche Wallone,
Classica San Sebastian,
World Road Championship.

Eddy Merckx Palmares from
http://www.kings5.freeserve.co.uk/merckxpalmares.htm

5 times Tour de France winner (1969-72, 1974) and 35 stage wins. Wore yellow jersey for a record 96 days.
5 times Giro d'Italia winner (1968, 1970, 1972-74) and 25 stage wins.
Vuelta a Espana winner (1973)
World Champion (1967,1971,1974)
Hour record (49.431 km, 1972-84)
3 times Paris-Nice winner (1969-71)
Tour of Switzerland (1974)
7 times Milan-San Remo winner (1966-67, 1969, 1971-72, 1975-76)
Tour of Flanders (1969,1975)
Paris-Roubaix (1968, 1970, 1973)
Liege-Bastogne-Liege (1969, 1971-73, 1975)
Amstel Gold Race (1973,1975)
Tour of Lombardy (1971-72)
Het Volk (1971,1973)
Ghent-Wevelgem (1967, 1969-70, 1973)
Fleche-Wallonne (1967, 1970, 1972, 1975)
Paris-Brussels (1973)
Henninger Turm (1971)
Grand Prix des Nations (1973)

* a footnote for those not familiar with cycling, the World Championship is a single separate race held once a year.

[sturob]

Lance Armstong is truly a miracle, a Texan who speaks fluent French and can also ride a bicycle.

Quoi, tu penses qu'il est le seul? Daß alles in Texas können nur ein Sprach sprechen? ¿Cuántas idiomas hablas tu? Yksi . . . kaksi . . . kolme?




Stuart

[Jayhawk]

Hey Stuart,

I think your fingers slipped on the keyboard and you were typing off one row...

Eric

[susnfx]

I'm at that point with Lance Armstrong that I arrived at with Michael Jordan and now Ken Jennings (the ongoing-ongoing-ongoing winner on Jeopardy): B-O-R-I-N-G

Just don't care any more and look forward to the day (now past with MJ) that they lose (or finally retire) and life can go on with some interesting competitions instead of the deification of some of these people and the already-a-given feel it all has to it now.

Susan

[claudine]

I'm at that point with Lance Armstrong that I arrived at with Michael Jordan and now Ken Jennings (the ongoing-ongoing-ongoing winner on Jeopardy): B-O-R-I-N-G

You forgot to mention Michael Schumacher, another lamer

[Loren]

I'm at that point with Lance Armstrong that I arrived at with Michael Jordan and now Ken Jennings (the ongoing-ongoing-ongoing winner on Jeopardy): B-O-R-I-N-G

You forgot to mention Michael Schumacher, another lamer

Loren

[Loren]

Bill,

I must confess that I have been playing Devil's Advocate a bit here, and I do agree with you that Lance hasn't focused on anything other than the TdF, which will certainly weaken his standing in history, and I think it's a bit of a shame, because having him competing in more races would be much more exciting.

OTH, the sport has changed so much that I doubt we'll ever see cycling be as competitive, over as many different races, as it used to be back in the day, which is indeed sad. I think it's also fair to say that Cycling drew from a much smaller pool of talent back in Eddie's day, and it's easier to be the biggest fish in a medium sized pond, than it is to be the biggest fish in the Ocean, if you see where I'm headed.....

However, we've probably beaten this horse to death, so how about this question:

What's tougher (competition wise), physically, technically, and mentally: Road Cycling or Mountain Biking?

Having had my taste of both (although not as a competitor), I'd have to vote MTB.

Loren

[Chuck_Clark]

I heard on 1010 WINS (all news, all the time!) that Armstrong has just hired bodyguards, due to getting abuse from European race fans. Is this true?

Every country has its share of sports a-holes. Look at the death threats Henry Aaron got when he was nearing the record, or the boorish behavior of some British soccer fans. Sure, it's possible that some French or other European "fans" might be stupid, but those areen't racing fans - just idiots.

One thing I've seen repeatedly during the coverage is masses of fans at the ends of each stage cheering wildly as Armstrong comes in. They can't ALL be American tourists. Also, Phil Liggett, the main race commentator, has frequently remarked that Armstrong seems to be hated by the Frence press, but that he's seen no evidence of it from the French fans, with whom, according to Liggett at least, Lance is very popular.

Perception is everything, I suppose, but I long since quit believeing everything I read in gossip rags.

[Loren]

I'm at that point with Lance Armstrong that I arrived at with Michael Jordan and now Ken Jennings (the ongoing-ongoing-ongoing winner on Jeopardy): B-O-R-I-N-G

Just don't care any more and look forward to the day (now past with MJ) that they lose (or finally retire) and life can go on with some interesting competitions instead of the deification of some of these people and the already-a-given feel it all has to it now.

Susan

Hmm, just curius - did you feel the same way about, Martina Navratolova, Monica Seles, or Mia Hamm?

Loren