"Americans embrace lying as a way to get ahead&quo

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OutOfBreath
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Post by OutOfBreath »

OutOfBreath wrote:And yes, I'll quite happily "persecute" any group that doesn't appreciate such basic values (presently, I don't know of any) because without them "society" simply doesn't work - as we in America are finding out.
Persecute? That's a bit scary...
"Persecute" was in quotes - i.e. today if you aren't kissing someone's backside you're "persecuting" them... :)
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Nanohedron
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Post by Nanohedron »

OutOfBreath wrote:
OutOfBreath wrote:And yes, I'll quite happily "persecute" any group that doesn't appreciate such basic values (presently, I don't know of any) because without them "society" simply doesn't work - as we in America are finding out.
Persecute? That's a bit scary...
"Persecute" was in quotes - i.e. today if you aren't kissing someone's backside you're "persecuting" them... :)
Seen that.

I can't help but worry, by the way, that my interchange with that young boy was more involved parenting than he's been accustomed to. I hope I'm wrong.
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susnfx
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Post by susnfx »

Hmmm...I was thinking that no one could question the obvious advantages in an honest and truthful society, so Chuck's attempt to turn it into a religious question (at least that's what I thought he was doing) irked me until I remembered something.

Two of my favorite books in the entire world are Elspeth Huxley's "Flame Trees of Thika" and "The Mottled Lizard" - books about her youth spent in East Africa in the early 1900s when the British still governed the area. She tells of the frustration and anger of the Europeans when told very obvious lies by the native Africans. The Europeans hated the lies, but the Africans considered the "lies" about stolen items, work not done, etc. simply a polite way to appease feelings and couldn't comprehend the Europeans' reactions at all.

Nevertheless, the article with which I started this thread was about Americans and I think most Americans would agree that in our society honesty is desirable and highly appreciated.

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Nanohedron
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Post by Nanohedron »

It is by me. Still, my preference for forthrightness has had some people assuming that that means I'm lacking in the brains department. Oh, well. It can be advantageous to be underestimated. :D
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Chuck_Clark
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Post by Chuck_Clark »

My comments had nothing to do with religion, other than the rather inescapable observation that religious adherents seem more likely to get upset when others fail to live up to their morals. What I was saying is that any absolute morality is unique to a particular cultural group or individual. Expecting everyone else to toe the line to your beliefs is arrogant at best.

As for universals like lying and stealing being universal evils, gimme a break! Its perfectly permissible to most groups to take the property and/or lives of "outsiders" by either force or guile. Usually there's some highfalutin' reason like superior moral values or manifest destiny, but as long as you don't take from someone within the group, its OK.

Looking back at the history of Western civilization, I can't honestly (fancy that - honesty) think of a single moral stricture (the various "Thou Shalt Nots") that doesn't come with an unspoken but universally recognized "unless".
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Nanohedron
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Post by Nanohedron »

This might be where we can clarify when falsehoods and omissions are actually wrong: in injurious result to others. I hate hypothetical situations, but here goes: what of those cases where such deceptions or silences are absolutely necessary if one intends to survive (not talking about conquest or career criminality, here), and there's no option but that someone else must suffer or even die for my lies or omissions so that I may live? Doesn't matter if they're evil or innocent. I think that's arguably wrong, even if it's for the sake of my family. I have to decide, and live with it.

Discuss.
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susnfx
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Post by susnfx »

Nanohedron wrote:This might be where we can clarify when falsehoods and omissions are actually wrong: in injurious result to others.
Well, really you could argue the point that nearly every lie injures someone else in some way at some point. Cheat on your medical school exam and a patient might pay for your lack of knowledge. Lie on your resume and, like the college coach recently, have it come back to haunt you (and your family) by being fired. Lie in court and you'll wind up in jail if found out - certain to affect your loved ones. Or lie to Congress and suffer the humiliation of impeachment if you're the President (and the family will be right there suffering with you, or rather because of you).

As for the hypothetical situation, I think very few, if any, of us will ever be in a situation where life or death will be the result of a lie. I'm reading a fascinating book, "Batavia's Graveyard," the true story of a shipwreck off the coast of Australia in 1629. A truly evil man managed to take command of the over 200 survivors and gathered around him a group of men who then, under his orders, over a period of about three weeks systemically butchered more than 150 of the other survivors. A few of the men begged their way out of death by swearing an oath of fealty to this maniac. Then, in order to test their oath, several of them were ordered to murder others - even their own friends. Would I have sworn the oath to save my life, even though I knew the man was an insane murderer? Undoubtedly. Would I have then murdered others in order to continue to live? I can't even comprehend the agony of that decision. Yet it really happened.

Hopefully, I'll only have to make decisions like returning too much change to the clerk who gave it to me.

Susan
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SwtCaro
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Post by SwtCaro »

Here's a link to an article that pertains to the topic:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs ... /407220302

Caroline
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