Yes, Gary, that's why I mentioned the possibility of cultural (better yet, culture-specific) tonal associations as an exception to Schubert's seemingly rather broad presumptions about predictabily and the listener in the post you exerpted. I would like to hear more about this from someone steeped in the tradition.GaryKelly wrote:Nanohedron wrote:No, I think that's just the Irish...I've heard other "happy"-sounding Irish laments in G as well, which seems to fly in the face of Schubert's ideas.
One of my favourite songs, which always conjures images of gaily dancing elves in my mind's eye, turned out in translation to be about some bloke who's missus has just run off with another bloke leaving him lamenting the betrayal and swearing he'll never trust another woman again... Amazing.
Math Equation Predicts Musical Reactions
- Nanohedron
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Re: In defence..
Well, no, understanding wouldn't spoil anything. But I'd be extremely surprised if these generalisations were true or even close. How often have you played a record for a friend whose taste is close to yours and been disappointed at the response? Many people much younger than me would probably like almost nothing I like, and I would not like much they like. It's no accident that 100 people walk into a big record store and each one walks out with a different record.Sam_T wrote: We're all human, with broadly the same physisological and psychological make-up. It should be no surprise if responses to music are broadly predictable, provided sufficiently careful measuring and modelling is carried out. It's not like we'll somehow "spoil" the music by knowing why it has the effect it does.
Sam
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I think this is really cool myself one thing that I found interesting is that he says the more musicians there are playing the *happier* it sounds which is why when I am playing tin whistle solo in my school and people tell me to play heppier sounding music I simply can't that must be why I will have to tell them next time this happens .
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But I don't think there's a contradiction or an exception to the referenced article here, I do think you've hit the nail on the head with the cultural reference though.Nanohedron wrote:GaryKelly wrote:Yes, Gary, that's why I mentioned the possibility of cultural (better yet, culture-specific) tonal associations as an exception to Schubert's seemingly rather broad presumptions about predictabily and the listener in the post you exerpted. I would like to hear more about this from someone steeped in the tradition.Nanohedron wrote: No, I think that's just the Irish...
One of my favourite songs, which always conjures images of gaily dancing elves in my mind's eye, turned out in translation to be about some bloke who's missus has just run off with another bloke leaving him lamenting the betrayal and swearing he'll never trust another woman again... Amazing.
Why should a lament not be a happy, uplifting tune (and as you've said, a lot of them are), particularly if you're from a culture that celebrates the life of the deceased (for example) rather than brooding on the loss?
I've attended a number of 'remembrance' services, unhappily. If those attending weren't depressed enough at the loss of a dear friend or loved one, they bloody well were by the time the organist had finished with the minor key dirges inflicted upon us all.
I've often heard it said "The Irish have the right idea..." in reference to Wakes and funerals... throw a party, get smashed, remember all the marvellous times you had with so-and-so.
That said, I would think this validates rather than contradicts Mr Schubert's theories, and explains the apparent contradiction you mentioned in your earlier post ("I've heard other "happy"-sounding Irish laments in G as well, which seems to fly in the face of Schubert's ideas.")
So it seems to me, anyway.
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Wombat, you're definitely right about the experience of playing something we love to a friend and finding them unmoved. We've all done it - "listen! LISTEN" this is the good bit..!! ..... there, wasn't that just AMAZING?!" etc.
However, there is an increasing body of research suggesting that the same kinds of structural features in music are responsible for many strong responses, and that these are fairly consist across genres. For instance, I teach at a music college in London, and recently I asked one of my classes to bring recordings of piece in any style that caused them to have strong emotional/physiological responses (shivers down the spine, tears welling up, etc). Although they brought widely different music, ranging from Verdi, through traditional flamenco to Celine Dion and Blue (I brought Mick O'Brien...!), when we analysed what was going on at the key moments it was always the same stuff - unexpected key changes, extremes of dynamic and register, changes of tempo or delayed harmonic resolutions.
I'm sceptical about whether research like Emery's will ever yield music written deliberately to evoke certain responses, and in any case I'm sure that this isn't what he's driving at. Instinctively, though, there's something a little unpalatable about the idea that our emotions might be open to calculated manipulation, and I think this sometimes leads people to overstress the individual differences between people and play down the commonalities.
Sam
However, there is an increasing body of research suggesting that the same kinds of structural features in music are responsible for many strong responses, and that these are fairly consist across genres. For instance, I teach at a music college in London, and recently I asked one of my classes to bring recordings of piece in any style that caused them to have strong emotional/physiological responses (shivers down the spine, tears welling up, etc). Although they brought widely different music, ranging from Verdi, through traditional flamenco to Celine Dion and Blue (I brought Mick O'Brien...!), when we analysed what was going on at the key moments it was always the same stuff - unexpected key changes, extremes of dynamic and register, changes of tempo or delayed harmonic resolutions.
I'm sceptical about whether research like Emery's will ever yield music written deliberately to evoke certain responses, and in any case I'm sure that this isn't what he's driving at. Instinctively, though, there's something a little unpalatable about the idea that our emotions might be open to calculated manipulation, and I think this sometimes leads people to overstress the individual differences between people and play down the commonalities.
Sam
It is reported today in our local newspaper that eHarmony.com has been given a patent U.S. Patent No. 6, 735, 568 which describes a "method and system for indentifying people who are likely to a successful relationship."
"But the patent has als sparked a debate: Can the elusive art of matchmaking be reduced to equations and databases?"
http://www.eharmony.com/core/eharmony?cmd=home
There are too many mathematicians etc with too much time on their hands
MarkB
"But the patent has als sparked a debate: Can the elusive art of matchmaking be reduced to equations and databases?"
http://www.eharmony.com/core/eharmony?cmd=home
There are too many mathematicians etc with too much time on their hands
MarkB
Everybody has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.