To Forgive--Or Not?

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chas
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Post by chas »

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Post by elendil »

Aristotle said that philosophy begins with wonder. These pics seem to be wonder inducing. It does seem to me that the greatest scientists do retain that sense of wonder, that it is the beauty in what they see (whether literally or otherwise) that is a constant spur for them.

I did a little reading in my ethics text, and it seems that part of my problem is semantic. (I mean my problem re forgiveness--other problems perhaps can be dealt in another, OT, thread.)
It appears to me that common usage refers to forgiveness largely from the standpoint of the person who was wronged, and in that sense refers to their willingness to forgo legitimate justice or illegitimate revenge. So those people are willing to forgive. Yet, from the standpoint of the person who commits the wrong, it seems to me that they aren't really forgiven until they accept the forgiveness, thus ratifying the offer of forgiveness.

Speaking again of forgiveness, here's a link to a review of the Gibson movie. The reviews I've been seeing seem to run the gamut of reactions. Some claim its sadistic in its single minded focus on violence and cruelty. Others claim that, no, the meaning of it all does come through--which is the forgiveness that we all need and receive. I'll give a little teaser, then give the link.
Gibson made dramatic choices regarding Pilate that not everyone will find satisfactory. But I did not take the sympathetic portrayal of Pilate to mitigate his guilt. I took its pedagogic purpose to be to invite us to imagine that the worst evil ever could have been committed by a man who seems like a nice guy. To have sympathy for someone is to imagine ourselves in his place. That is what we are meant to do here. We are nice people. Could we have done something like this? Yes. We did. To make Pilate an ogre would be to defeat this point entirely. Should Pilate be forgiven, whatever his motives? Should the Jewish leaders? Should we? That is not a question that I can answer. But it may be worth noting?it is not the least significant comment in the movie?that Jesus Christ asks His Father to forgive His killers.
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/pr ... 201151.asp

This review deals with the anti-semitic angle, as well.
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Post by Lorenzo »

"Man is a religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven."
-Mark Twain in Letters from the Earth

Of course we forgive you. "Go and sin no more."
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Post by Jon-M »

A lot depends on your understanding of the world and the issue of evil. For example, the Buddhist perspective is that the core drive of all sentient beings is to be happy and the core problem is that we all go about it the wrong way, through the attempted solidification and aggrandizement of self rather than seeing that the so-called "self" is actually an illusion. In other words, from this point of view, evil is demoted to the rather unglamorous position of being extreme ignorance inasmuch as an evil person tries to gain happiness by trying to harm others and in the process creates long term causes that will bring great suffering on his or herself.
So, all sentient beings, great and small, caught up in the welter of killing, birth, old age, and death suffer and all merit compassion. So, one's aspiration might be:

May all sentient beings enjoy happiness and the root of happiness;
May they be free from suffering and the root of suffering;
May they not be separated from the great happiness devoid of suffering;
May they dwell in the great equanimity free from passion, aggression, and prejudice.

After all, what good is it to me or anyone else if Hitler or Stalin or Judas or Jeffrey Dahmer burns in the fires of hell for ever? Why should anyone suffer?
May this be of benefit.
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Post by elendil »

No need to go to the East for such views. Plato certainly held the same view, that evil is caused by ignorance, and no doubt it is in many cases--in various forms.

The orthodox Christian view is that evil is "non-being," or rather a "lack" or deprivation of a proper degree of being. For those born with a birth defect, say, that would be a physical evil and would carry no moral imputation. On the other hand, there are those who, whether through ignorance or deliberate choice, choose evil, and in those cases there may be varying degrees of moral responsibility. Obviously, ignorance in a rational animal, such as man, is an evil, i.e., a lack of a quality that should be present. Deliberate choices of evil also represent a lack of a proper good in a man: virtue, which would lead a man, in conjunction with knowledge, to make a proper choice.

Too, for the orthodox Christian, as with Aristotle, all men by nature desire the good. That means that no choice is made except it be presented to a person as in some way good--no matter how perverted that view of the matter may be. Again, there is the issue of moral responsibility in varying degrees: to what degree is one responsible for acquiring such a perverted view as that, for example, genocide is an acceptable solution for a complex conflict among human beings.
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Forgiveness

Post by Rhose »

For another example of forgiveness in the Bible, read the story of Joseph in Genesis. Quick summary: Joseph was favored by his father, was sold into salvery by his brothers, is framed and ends up in jail, and later becomes #2 in Egypt (behind the Pharaoh). In chapter 45, he reveals himself to his brothers, and instead of taking revenge, forgives them for what they had done.

45:5 "But don't be angry with yourselves that you did this to me, for God did it. He sent me here ahead of you to preserve your lives."
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Post by U2 »

elendil wrote:. . .The orthodox Christian view is that evil is "non-being," or rather a "lack" or deprivation of a proper degree of being. For those born with a birth defect, say, that would be a physical evil and would carry no moral imputation. On the other hand, there are those who, whether through ignorance or deliberate choice, choose evil, and in those cases there may be varying degrees of moral responsibility. Obviously, ignorance in a rational animal, such as man, is an evil, i.e., a lack of a quality that should be present. Deliberate choices of evil also represent a lack of a proper good in a man: virtue, which would lead a man, in conjunction with knowledge, to make a proper choice.

Too, for the orthodox Christian, as with Aristotle, all men by nature desire the good. That means that no choice is made except it be presented to a person as in some way good--no matter how perverted that view of the matter may be. Again, there is the issue of moral responsibility in varying degrees: to what degree is one responsible for acquiring such a perverted view as that, for example, genocide is an acceptable solution for a complex conflict among human beings.
"Orthodox Christian"? Who's that? How does Satan, as the fallen angel responsible for all things bad, fit into that statement?
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Post by Lorenzo »

Chistianity is Eastern. As you well know, evil begins with the loss of self-control. It's hard to explain myths like "Satan" to a responsible person. Leave that for those who need to mold the truth to fit their preferences.
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Post by U2 »

Lorenzo wrote:Chistianity is Eastern. As you well know, evil begins with the loss of self-control. It's hard to explain myths like "Satan" to a responsible person. Leave that for those who need to mold the truth to fit their preferences.
Thanks for the advice. I considered it. But the story of Christ is told in Biblical scripture, as I'm certain you are aware. Those same books attribute evil to Satan. I am wondering how we can cite "orthodox Christianity" in the absence of the balance of information contained in the books. Question stands to E
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Post by Bloomfield »

Lorenzo wrote:... As you well know, evil begins with the loss of self-control.
Sounds like Protestant/Calvinist propaganda to me. Telling someone not to lose self-control is about as helpful as telling someone to be spontaneous. Seems to achieve little more than create repressed personalities, tied-up in knots, with bitter expressions and enormous therapy-bills.
/Bloomfield
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Post by peeplj »

Bloomfield, great posts on this thread.

I just wanted to add my $.02: sometimes it's actually good to lose your self-control.

I do think we have to take responsibility for evil ourselves--when we have a handy scapegoat like "The Devil made me do it!" then we have this wonderful way to abdicate responsibility, and nothing is ever really our own fault.

The scary truth is we don't need any devil: humanity's track record shows him to be quite evil enough without help from Outside.

--James
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Post by Nanohedron »

I'm quite flawed. I seldom consider forgiveness unless the one who has wronged me wants it, and has irrefutably changed his/her ways that led to the wrong in the first place.

Forgiveness to me is more an indication of amplitude, if you will: the more a wronging is to the forefront of my memory, the less forgiving I am; it's difficult if not impossible to get on with a fresh start, otherwise. It's been said, "Forgive, but never forget." I've never seen the difference in the two, and believe me, I've tried.

It just occurred to me that the phrase "forgive and forget" says something about this.
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Post by U2 »

Bloomfield wrote:Telling someone not to lose self-control is about as helpful as telling someone to be spontaneous.
:) Nancy Reagan's "just say no" plan has been heralded as something of a success, course that's with addictive drugs - not religion. :)
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Post by clark »

Jon-M is correct in saying that for us Buddhists evil is basically a matter of ignorance. This then begs the question, "Ignorant of what?" and leads directly back to the issue of forgiveness and its twin, blame. Forgiveness and blame are not a matter of absolution, but rather of interdependence. To put it crudely, the ignorance Jon-M is alluding to is not realizing our fundamental core connectedness.

The 7th century Chinese Zen teacher Hui Neng put it like this, "When I am wrong, I alone am to blame. When others are wrong, I alone am to blame."

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Post by Bloomfield »

U2 wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:Telling someone not to lose self-control is about as helpful as telling someone to be spontaneous.
:) Nancy Reagan's "just say no" plan has been heralded as something of a success, course that's with addictive drugs - not religion. :)
The thing here is that "just say no" works for kids who actually don't want to smoke pot or whatever, but do not have the will to resist the peer pressure. By setting up a "no-saying" role model, it supposedly becomes easier to resist the peer pressure.

The problem with Lorenzo's "self-control" is twofold, first of all it's a bit like giving someone the music to a Liszt piano etude and telling them to "just play it". Being told to control yourself doesn't help you actually control yourself.

Second problem is that it's insufficient to merely control yourself. "But I tell you, he who as much as desires another man's wife, has already broken the marriage." Meaning, the aim is not to want to transgress and not merely to supress or control the impulse to transgress once it arises.

Of course instead of telling you how not to desire what you shouldn't desire, "leading Christian thought" will tell you that (a) you won't be able to anyway, (b) it's not meant the way it was said, or (c) struggle as you will, you'll be saved by the grace of God (i.e. at the whim of God), or not at all. All of the above are a bit unsatisfactory, but that's probably just me.

Okay, I think that was my religious post quota for the year, right there. If I've offended your religious sensitivities, I didn't mean to. :)
/Bloomfield
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