To Forgive--Or Not?

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rebl_rn
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Post by rebl_rn »

Probably the only thing harder than forgiving is accepting forgiveness from others. People tend to be their own harshest critics and usually have the hardest time forgiving themselves. And if I can't forgive myself, I certainly can't accept the forgiveness others may be giving me - whether it comes from a friend (hard to accept), an enemy (harder still) or God (hardest of all).

As a Christian, it is imperative to forgive, as the Lord's Prayer says - "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". I believe God wants us - commands us - to forgive is because He knows it is good for us, healthy for us, and He is madly in love with us and only wants the best for us.

So forgive. It's not easy, it may take time. To forgive doesn't mean you have to start liking the forgivee, or set yourself up to be hurt again. It just means that you forgive them. You may not even be able to tell them you've forgiven them - that's OK. And if they choose not to accept your gift of forgiveness, well, that's sad, but that's not why one should forgive.

Beth (another woman posting!)
Wash your hands. Cough and sneeze in your sleeve. Stay home if you are sick. Stay informed. http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu for more info.
jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Many years ago when I was about 13 or 14, my cousin
Richard and I visited my Aunt Ella and Uncle Bernie,
who lived in housing projects on Nostrand Ave
in Brooklyn. They were professional gamblers,
specializing in poker; also they worked the
track, esepcially trotters. Bernie worked as a park
man, throwing out basketballs, because he'd been
blacklisted as a commie; also he wrote novels
about juvenile delinquents being rehabilitated
by a friendly Jewish parkman. Finally he
was rehabilitated and he became an
assistant district DA (he had a law degree),
until he was fired for taking bribes.
They were like no one
else in our family.

When we arrived they were having a political
argument about whether Adlai Stevenson should
run again for president. 'He's had his chance, Bernie!'
He should step aside and let somebody else run!'
Ella proclaimed, rather loudly. This went on for
some time.

When we left, on the way down in the elevator,
Richard looked at me, amazed, and said:
'I didn't know women had political views!'
susnfx
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Post by susnfx »

I had an interesting experience with the near impossibility of complete forgiveness once. In response to an unpleasant episode, like all families have, my brother wrote me the most hateful letter I've ever received. It included a numbered list of everything I had done over years and years that had angered or hurt him. I've never been so devastated by anything in my life. My first impulse was to write back and completely cut him out of my life, but at the time I was trying to live a more religious life and felt that I had to forgive and forget. So I fasted and prayed for the ability to forgive, to get over it. For weeks I strived with an unbelievable mixture of feelings, but finally felt I'd won.

About a month after I received the letter I was hospitalized for massive panic attacks. It was several years before I actually tied the two things together. I know now that all I had done was push all that anger, stress, and frustration deep inside. I guess I don't know how you truly forgive - at least not quickly. It's taken years to get over that letter and be friends with my brother again.

Susan
(hooray for the women posting!)
jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Yes, forgiveness is sometimes overrated. Best
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Post by Nanohedron »

susnfx wrote:I had an interesting experience with the near impossibility of complete forgiveness once. In response to an unpleasant episode, like all families have, my brother wrote me the most hateful letter I've ever received. It included a numbered list of everything I had done over years and years that had angered or hurt him. I've never been so devastated by anything in my life. My first impulse was to write back and completely cut him out of my life, but at the time I was trying to live a more religious life and felt that I had to forgive and forget. So I fasted and prayed for the ability to forgive, to get over it. For weeks I strived with an unbelievable mixture of feelings, but finally felt I'd won.

About a month after I received the letter I was hospitalized for massive panic attacks. It was several years before I actually tied the two things together. I know now that all I had done was push all that anger, stress, and frustration deep inside. I guess I don't know how you truly forgive - at least not quickly. It's taken years to get over that letter and be friends with my brother again.

Susan
(hooray for the women posting!)
Susan, this is an illustration of my first post. What is not forgotten eats at us, I believe, and yet we are creatures of memory. More and more I come to think that true forgiveness, if it exists, would be God's domain, and it is for us to try a pale imitation. I think that human forgiveness has by its nature no relation to philosophical absolutes; it seems to be qualified by just about any factor that exists in human life, and it's the baggage, along with an innate need for parity, that makes it take so damned long when and *IF* it happens.

So let's just say "screw it" and revel in hate. :twisted:

































Just kidding about that last bit. :)

(And hooray for the women posting, too.)
jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Ithink sometimes not forgiving people
is a good option. Doesn't mean you have to
be eaten up by anger. You don't forgive
and you get on with your life.
'Forgiving' has several meanings; it's
one thing to wish harm on people; another
to view them and their behaviour with
anger and have no interest in
giving it up. Sometimes the latter is
a realistic and healthy option, IMO.
This isn't what we are supposed to say,
of course, but maybe it's realistic.
Anger isn't always such a bad thing;
you can think when you're angry,
you don't have to behave badly.
It can give you the energy you need
to do what you have to do.
Sometimes anger is appropriate;
sometimes it helps people survive.
Anger isn't some magical state that
takes over and carries you off.

There are people I can think of who
I never want to see again, and won't.
I would do nothing to harm them,
but I view them and their actions
with anger, and I have no wish
to give it up. I don't think about them
very much. I don't suppose that's
forgiveness, but it's alright with me. Best
U2
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Post by U2 »

Bloomfield wrote:
U2 wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:Telling someone not to lose self-control is about as helpful as telling someone to be spontaneous.
:) Nancy Reagan's "just say no" plan has been heralded as something of a success, course that's with addictive drugs - not religion. :)
The thing here is that "just say no" works for kids who actually don't want to smoke pot or whatever, but do not have the will to resist the peer pressure. By setting up a "no-saying" role model, it supposedly becomes easier to resist the peer pressure.

The problem with Lorenzo's "self-control" is twofold, first of all it's a bit like giving someone the music to a Liszt piano etude and telling them to "just play it". Being told to control yourself doesn't help you actually control yourself.

Second problem is that it's insufficient to merely control yourself. "But I tell you, he who as much as desires another man's wife, has already broken the marriage." Meaning, the aim is not to want to transgress and not merely to supress or control the impulse to transgress once it arises.

Of course instead of telling you how not to desire what you shouldn't desire, "leading Christian thought" will tell you that (a) you won't be able to anyway, (b) it's not meant the way it was said, or (c) struggle as you will, you'll be saved by the grace of God (i.e. at the whim of God), or not at all. All of the above are a bit unsatisfactory, but that's probably just me.

Okay, I think that was my religious post quota for the year, right there. If I've offended your religious sensitivities, I didn't mean to. :)
Bloomie - Mine? Heck. I'm not offended at all. I think Nancy Reagan's policy was for crap. How 'bout "just say where the hell are my parents?" :)
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Post by U2 »

susnfx wrote:I have a question for those taking part in this thread, and I'm absolutely serious.
Why do you suppose it is that no women (or very few - since I'm not positive of the gender of some posters on this thread) have posted to this thread or to some of the other OT threads going recently?

Is it that women aren't as contentious? Aren't as intellectual?
Aren't quite so certain they're always right? ;) Or simply aren't as interested in hearing themselves talk?

As I said, I'm dead serious. I'd like to know your thoughts.

Susan
:) Perhaps chicks just don't know the answers. :)
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Post by Scott McCallister »

rebl_rn wrote: ...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...
Seems pretty clear. :roll:

Scott McCallister
There's and old Irish saying that says pretty much anything you want it to.

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Post by Nanohedron »

Jim, I have to agree with your last post. Sometimes things boil down to self-preservation tactics, too. If I forgive and re-commune with certain people, I KNOW they'll just go about screwing with me all over again; my being of the conviction that their behaviors are the result of inner demons doesn't alter anything other than remind me that I'm only human and can't cure others.
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rebl_rn
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Post by rebl_rn »

Nanohedron wrote: If I forgive and re-commune with certain people, I KNOW they'll just go about screwing with me all over again; my being of the conviction that their behaviors are the result of inner demons doesn't alter anything other than remind me that I'm only human and can't cure others.
But forgiving them doesn't mean you have to re-commune with them - if you know they are going to screw you over again, you're perfectly right to not to have anything to do with them. But you can still forgive them. Yes, it's a pale imitation of God's forgiveness, but then everything we do is pale in comparison to God. We can't forgive like Him, but you can't love like Him or create like Him either. We can't hope to be like Him, we can only try to be in communion with Him, and being unforgiving of others keeps us from that communion.

Beth
Wash your hands. Cough and sneeze in your sleeve. Stay home if you are sick. Stay informed. http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu for more info.
jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Nanohedron wrote:Jim, I have to agree with your last post. Sometimes things boil down to self-preservation tactics, too. If I forgive and re-commune with certain people, I KNOW they'll just go about screwing with me all over again; my being of the conviction that their behaviors are the result of inner demons doesn't alter anything other than remind me that I'm only human and can't cure others.
Yes, realism is healthy. I mean if people have religious
commtiments to forgive, fine. But there's all this stuff
we're supposed to say and sometimes it helps to
question it.

I've mentioned in other threads that my kid sister
had a catastrophic stroke at 28 that left her
triaplegic and barely able to speak. She's lived
in nursing homes for 30 years until I managed to
get her into an apartment.

My sister lived with a cousin from the age of 9 till she
was 18. They were very close, for all intents siblings.
He has never once visited her since the stroke,
though heaven knows how much it would mean
to her. He said that he was afraid of hospitals.
Later he told me that he had gotten over his
fear of hospitals, and was sometimes
visiting people in hospitals,
but he still never visited her,
though he was often in the neighborhood.
I occasionally phoned him, but he never phoned me;
we were quite close, in fact. One day I said: 'Listen,
why don't you call me next time?' That was fifteen
years ago and I haven't heard from him.

I'm not consumed with anger, I'm just glad to be
shut of him. No unfinished business.
My attitude isn't forgiveness, certainly.
It's: 'Up yours, buddy. You're not a man.' Best
livethe question
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Post by livethe question »

I find "forgiveness" to be a process. It's not something that's done once with a person and it's over and done with. I forgive and a few days, weeks, months..........or seconds.........later I realize that once again I have returned to that place where I have a choice to forgive or not to forgive. It's not that I haven't forgiven before. It's just that it comes up again and that's what I need to pay attention to in my life. And over time, forgiveness can be come a way of life. There are times in my life when I'm much better at this than at other times. It's part of my journey.

Stephen Levine has a wonderful "Forgiveness Meditaion" in his tapes called "To Love and Be Loved". In it you ask for forgiveness for whatever you may have done purposefully or unknowingly and you give forgiveness for what was done to you, either purposefully or unknowingly. Takes it out of the head and returns it to the spirit, I think.
Peace

Namasté

jim
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Post by jim stone »

I like Stephen Levine's stuff; a very helpful man.

But I sometimes have trouble with Buddhist
teachings--a bit like the healthy tension
Christians have with Christianity.

There's sometimes the idea that anger is always
inappropriate, that it's always destructive,
that you can't act skilfully if you're
angry, that you can't think if you're
angry, that anger basically takes over
and sweeps you away, it has you, you
don't have it. Anger consumes us!

Of course anger can be a problem,
but often it's energy to solve a problem,
you can act quite skillfuly if you're angry,
anger needn't consume you, and it's
just another condition that arises
on account of causes, not something
magically potent that must
sweep you away.
Your child comes home from school
crying and describes what sounds like
being sexually touched by the teacher.
You go to the principal, explain what's
going on. She says: 'Well, this is very interesting,
but I'm about to go on vacation for two
weeks. Let's talk about it when I get back.'

'hey, wait a minute' you say, getting angry.
'We don't have two weeks. A child's well being
is at stake. We need to talk about this
now!'

'Oh, alright' the principal says,
and addresses the problem.
Play out this scenario without getting angry
and see if it's an improvement. Best

P.S. I didn't mean to suggest, Jim, that
I'm responding to what you said.
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