To Forgive--Or Not?

[elendil]

Well, here we are, Lent's upon us and the topic of forgiveness seems particularly relevant. Should the Christ have forgiven those who crucified him? Should Democrats forgive Nader for running again? Should we forgive one another--and does that depend on circumstances?

It so happens that there's a new book out on the subject and I have a link for a review article. But first a teaser:

Taming the Vindictive Passions

Getting Even: Forgiveness and Its Limits. By Jeffrie G. Murphy. Oxford University Press. 152 pp. $21.

Reviewed by Daniel P. Moloney

In 1995, at ceremonies marking the fiftieth anniversary of the end of the Second World War and the liberation of Auschwitz, Elie Wiesel made the following prayer: “God of forgiveness, do not forgive those who created this place. God of mercy, have no mercy on those who killed here Jewish children.” Such a prayer makes many people uncomfortable and provokes some thorny theoretical and practical questions: Are there any unforgivable acts? Isn’t there some point after which Germany and the German people can be forgiven? Is hate ever a virtue?

The tensions between justice and compassion, forgiveness and order provide deep conceptual puzzles of the sort that analytic philosophers usually like to tackle, though surprisingly few do so in any depth. Fortunately, among those few is Jeffrie G. Murphy, Regents Professor of Law and Philosophy at Arizona State University, whose Getting Even: Forgiveness and Its Limits is a well-written and accessible yet deeply serious examination of the costs of forgiveness and the dangers of cheap grace.

Murphy began his career in philosophy of law as a leading defender of retribution as the primary justification for criminal punishment, and he still retains a tough-minded appreciation for the retributive idea and its supporting emotions of anger, vindictiveness, and resentment. But in 1988, Murphy coauthored a book with Jean Hampton, Forgiveness and Mercy, and it seems to have marked a turning point in his thinking and career.

Now the link:

http://print.firstthings.com/ftissues/f ... loney.html

The second half of the article talks a good deal about Christianity and forgiveness. To be honest, I have problems with a lot of the stuff that's written in this article. The author of the book is an analytic philosopher, so you wouldn't want to take his views very seriously, but it's a good way to start a discussion.

I have to apologize in advance to everyone. In spite of my best efforts I seem to be running low on thought (or otherwise) provoking material, so I really can't say when my next OT post will be. But I'll keep trying.

And finally, a bonus link for those who have made it this far:

http://print.firstthings.com/ftissues/f ... iller.html

The article is "Alone in the Academy."

edited apropos nothing in particular:

some of this pics make great backgrounds; I'm gonna try this one out

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/

[Nanohedron]

I would like to add the implied question:

Should we forgive elendil for yet another OT post?

...or not?

[Lorenzo]

"For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?" Mat. 9:5

[Chuck_Clark]

I would like to add the implied question:

Should we forgive elendil for yet another OT post?

...or not?

Why not make it a poll and let us vote?

[livethe question]

I don't know where I found it but I've carried the quote below in my wallet for about 2 years.

"The following prayer was found scrawled on a piece of wrapping paper in the Ravensbruck concentration camp:

'Lord, remember not only the men and women of good will, but all those of ill will. Do not only remember all the suffering they have subjected us to. Remember the fruits we have brought forth thanks to this suffering - our comradship, our loyalty, our courage and generosity, the greatness of heart that all this inspired. And when they come to justice, let all these fruits which we have borne be their judgement and their forgiveness.'"

I'm not sure if this was actually found as presented but it speaks to me. To forgive thoughtlessly, without thought, and not to forgive at all only keeps up trapped, continuiing the injury and the trap begun by others.

hey and I don't even claim to be Christian anymore even though I doubt I will ever completely escape the religion of my childhood. I try to take what works and let the rest go.

y'all take care

[elendil]

edited to remove Hazmat.

Lord, remember not only the men and women of good will, but all those of ill will. Do not only remember all the suffering they have subjected us to. Remember the fruits we have brought forth thanks to this suffering - our comradship, our loyalty, our courage and generosity, the greatness of heart that all this inspired. And when they come to justice, let all these fruits which we have borne be their judgement and their forgiveness.'"

This is pretty typical of the sentiment that is portrayed as Christian. I think the problem many of us have with it--and which of us hasn't at some time wished that we could feel that way?--is when we think of the person who has, for example, subjected a child to a lonely, shameful and painful death--and rejoices in his deed. Do we forgive? Does God forgive?

[Bloomfield]

I've maxed out on OT stuff, designated HAZMAT or not. I wish that you elendil, Jim Stone, and a few others would decide just not to start threads for a while. Or limit yourself to one a month; or even one a week would be an improvement. I post as enthusiastically to OT threads as the next guy, so that you will understand that this is not a reflection on quality or on interest, but on quantity.

[elendil]

Perhaps you're right. This started out to be theoretical, but then became personal, which isn't really my usual style. If anyone wants to shut this down, I have no problem with that.

[Bloomfield]

Perhaps you're right. This started out to be theoretical, but then became personal, which isn't really my usual style. If anyone wants to shut this down, I have no problem with that.

I was not reacting to this thread or your last post in particular. Also, I am not for shutting things down nor do I want to be the one telling people what to post or not. I feel better already just having gotten it off my chest.

[elendil]

Well, I just bought a hardbound version of "Young Men in Spats" (very cheap at Amazon, like 11 bucks or so) and I've been reading a story per night. I'm up to "Trouble Down At Tudsleigh"--one of my favorites. I've already practiced my recorder tonight, so maybe I'll go read that rather than think about forgiveness anymore.

[Bloomfield]

.... I've already practiced my recorder tonight, so maybe I'll go read that rather than think about forgiveness anymore.

Well, now you've shamed me into posting something on-off-topic. I don't think I'll care to explain further though.

1. Forgiveness, like guilt, is something that is difficult to transfer from a personal, individual level to a public, community level, conceptually and practically.

2. Victim and perpetrator are linked in a cycle that can be broken only by forgiveness. Forgiveness benefits the the forgiver as much as the forgiven.

[livethe question]

Well said Bloomfield.

jim d

[elendil]

Victim and perpetrator are linked in a cycle that can be broken only by forgiveness. Forgiveness benefits the the forgiver as much as the forgiven.

It's easy enough to imagine a situation to fit your words, but in the case of the predatory person I don't see how the cycle has been broken. Doesn't true forgiveness imply true repentance? Certainly, there can be an intent to forgive before repentance is manifested, even an offer of forgiveness to move the offender to repent and accept forgiveness, to be reconciled, but absent some sort of reciprocity it seems the forgiver's hands are tied. Can forgiveness be truly given if it's not accepted?

I have a specific situation in mind. No physical violence involved or anything like that, but a series of felonies of a fraudulent nature committed against a person who is close to me by a relative. Now, there's really no question of anger at this stage, not even outrage. Forgiveness would be freely given. But there appears to be an underlying malevolence involved that no amount of proferred forgiveness could erase.

What can forgiveness mean in this case? Certainly, there is no question of seeking revenge--my friend has declined to even report the fraud to the authorities. And yet one wonders whether that would have been the proper course, to turn the offender in as a matter of justice to other potential victims rather than out of a desire to avenge oneself.

Perhaps this is semantic, but isn't there a difference between forgoing vengeance or demanding justice--and forgiving? For forgiveness to "take effect," could it be that it must be accepted?

Of course, here we're speaking of largely personal matters. On the societal level I firmly believe that justice must be enforced. Remorse may be taken into account, but only within defined limits. That's my view.

I'm rereading my old ethics book, but I haven't gotten to forgiveness yet.

Ha! But "Trouble Down At Tudsleigh" was as funny as I remembered it.

[glauber]

I would like to add the implied question:

Should we forgive elendil for yet another OT post?

...or not?

Shouldn't this be a poll?

[fiddling_tenor]

some of this pics make great backgrounds; I'm gonna try this one out http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/

Elendil: I've been using these pics as wallpaper for years! Great stuff. Always helps me keeps things in perspective, and maintain a sense of wonder at our incredible universe. I'm 45 years young!