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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:19 pm 
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Caj wrote:
http://www.hmtrad.com/catalog/winds/sbx/sbx-org.html

I believe Colin Dipper also once made a concertina like this.

Caj


Like HMT says, it's not a concertina -- it's an accordion masquerading as a concertina. ("Verdict: it's just another weird double reeded button accordion.")

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:27 pm 
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It's like piccolos and fifes... concertinas and accordions are different instruments, with independent histories. The fact that an accordion may sometimes look just like a concertina doesn't make it a concertina. Sometimes you can't tell by the shape alone. It's a combination of the shape, the way the scale is set (concertina has notes on both sides, accordion has chords or basses on one side, notes on the other), the size and shape of the reeds and how the reeds are mounted.

Again: http://www.concertina.net is like a chiff&fipple for concertinas. Lots of good info there.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:51 am 
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csharpd wrote:
Caj wrote:


Like HMT says, it's not a concertina -- it's an accordion masquerading as a concertina. ("Verdict: it's just another weird double reeded button accordion.")



Well, then it's a counter-example to rule # 2: you have an accordion whose buttons travel along the bellows.

Caj


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:23 am 
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Caj wrote:
Well, then it's a counter-example to rule # 2: you have an accordion whose buttons travel along the bellows.


Dang, caught up by one exception (or maybe two), because I was trying to make the rules cover every case. :roll: Thanks for the catch.

If there's anyone out there still reading this thread besides Caj and glauber, the exceptions are the "organetto," essentially a button accordion in a concertina shell; and the "franglo," a somewhat similar instrument made (only briefly, I think) by Colin Dipper. From the only online description I can find of the franglo, it's unclear whether the left hand has chords or simply bass notes. These are rare birds: Even though I've played concertinas for 20 years, I've never seen either one of these.

Hoping to bring this thread to a close (on my terms :lol: ) I think it can be resolved in one of two ways.

The simplest way is to reduce the formula to rule (2) alone, buttons that travel in the same direction as the bellows. In this formulation, the organetto and franglo are concertinas; free-bass accordions are not.

Alternatively, one could keep both rules:

(1) Absence of prearranged chords.
(2) buttons that travel in the same direction as the bellows,

and specify that concertinas always satisfy both (1) and (2), but accordions never satisfy both (1) and (2) in a single instrument.

This would put the organetto and franglo in the accordion camp, while still treating free-bass accordions as accordions.

glauber wrote:

"... the size and shape of the reeds and how the reeds are mounted."

glauber, I think there's too much variation in these aspects to make them useful rules for distinguishing concertinas from accordions.

As for concertina.net, Caj and I both participate there (which is probably where we should have taken this discussion). :lol:

--C#/D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:25 pm 
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There's also the cheap Chinese concertinas that sell for $300 on eBay, use accordion reeds and have long bellows. They look like bigugly concertinas, but are probably better called something else?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:04 pm 
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glauber wrote:
There's also the cheap Chinese concertinas that sell for $300 on eBay, use accordion reeds and have long bellows. They look like bigugly concertinas, but are probably better called something else?


I think "big, ugly, cheap concertinas" is an accurate description. I believe they're knock-offs of concertina styles formerly made in Europe. They do have diatonic (anglo-style) note layouts. As for using accordion reeds, so do a lot of modern, not-cheap concertinas (Morse, Edgley, Herrington, Tedrow, Norman, ...).

--C#/D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:23 pm 
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(I'm venturing farther and farther from what i actually know, here...) If they have accordion reeds and need considerably more air than something with true concertina reeds, are they still concertinas? Sounds like an accordion, plays like an accordion, looks like a concertina...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:51 am 
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Quote:
If there's anyone out there still reading this thread besides Caj and glauber, the exceptions are the "organetto," essentially a button accordion in a concertina shell; and the "franglo," a somewhat similar instrument made (only briefly, I think) by Colin Dipper. From the only online description I can find of the franglo, it's unclear whether the left hand has chords or simply bass notes. These are rare birds: Even though I've played concertinas for 20 years, I've never seen either one of these.


I don't even think we should count the "franglo," as anyone can make a one-off instrument that breaks the rules. Unless there are dozens of them out there, I think that organetto is the only real counterexample.

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The simplest way is to reduce the formula to rule (2) alone, buttons that travel in the same direction as the bellows. In this formulation, the organetto and franglo are concertinas; free-bass accordions are not.


Deal. We'll take them.

The only thing that bothers me about this button-direction rule, tho, is that there's no real reason why it has to be that way. Tomorrow someone could start designing concertinae whose buttons face the audience, or accordions with buttons around the side. Whatever's ergonomic.

It really has nothing to do with the functional difference between the instruments, whereas the multiple-reeds-and-chords rule is something that really distinguishes the actual sounds they make.

In any case, at this level it's all academic. The usual rule for accordions is the same as the rule for pr00n: I know it when I see it.

Caj


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:15 am 
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I have the privilege of friendship with Bob Tedrow, who builds concertinas right here in Birmingham. He builds 'em from the ground up. Makes the buttons, the bellows, the springs, everything, I think, except the reeds.

I think a good concertina is about the coolest instrument on the planet.

http://www.concertina.net/dw_homewood.html


Dale


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 am 
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Image

:boggle:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:43 am 
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LOL -- it took a thread on concertinas and lots of posts by Caj for me to finally understand what Caj's Avatar has in its mouth ... :lol:

Either I should get up earlier, or drink more coffee, or -- get on with work now.

Now there's a thought.

Cheerz,


Ed


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:17 am 
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Number of "voices" (reeds per tone) may be misleading. Bandoneons are of the concertina family, but most have two voices (octaved) per button. Now, some melodeons of the "diatonic accordion" family popular here in Brittany, as well as Eire, are single-voiced. It's hard to distinguish their sound by ear from concertini(-næ?).

Am I spaced out again :boggle: or no-one mentioned one big classification border between squeezeboxes, i.e. whether thye're unisonic or bisonic -- (same thing univocal/bivocal) ?

I.e. the same difference when comparing "diatonic" or "chromatic" mouth-harps: different sound or same sound whether you blow out or blow in.

Most "concertina" type instruments are bivocal. Except some concertinas described as "chromatic bandoneons" are univocal, i.e. same pitch drawing or pressing in.

As a counter-example, many Russian/Ukrainian "garmoshka" are formally diatonic (often in A-scale, plus a few accidentals to expand the range) yet univocal (same sound whether you press or expand the bellows), but they're still of the melodion--diatonic accordion--family.

Finally, the main difference I can find between concertina (generally) and accordions (generically) is:
1) Do you hold the right keybard steady on your knee, while moving the left? Accordion!
2) Do you hold the machine in-between your hands, while barely if ever resting the bellows on your knees? Concertina.

In the first type, your right hand can freely wander on a longer keyboard, while the second has your right hand strapped, hence forcing your fingers to a fan-like motion, and the weird key pattern of elaborate variations, the bandoneon being its ultimate complication.

A thorough classification of squeezeboxes is yet to be found.
I suggest the following basis, aka "Zoob's table of periodic classification":
A) Squeeezeboxes
A1) mammal
A1a) melodeons
A1b) accordions
A1c) piano accordions
A2) marsupial (concertina, bandoneon, usw.)
(etc.)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:58 pm 
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glauber wrote:
(I'm venturing farther and farther from what i actually know, here...) If they have accordion reeds and need considerably more air than something with true concertina reeds, are they still concertinas? Sounds like an accordion, plays like an accordion, looks like a concertina...


Well, for starters, accordion reeds are very air-efficient, so an accordion-reeded concertina doesn't need more air---unless there are quality problems with all the other parts.

Nor do these accordion-reeded boxen really play like an accordion. They do sound buzzy like an accordion, expecially on the high end. Concertina reeds often sound the same in the steady state, but have a chirpy attack that (IMHO) accordion-reeded boxen can not really duplicate.

Caj


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:33 pm 
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Caj wrote:
Concertina reeds often sound the same in the steady state, but have a chirpy attack that (IMHO) accordion-reeded boxen can not really duplicate.

You see that in ornamentation, especially rolls. Concertina has that extra pop to it.

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