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How do you feel about the Superbowl halftime entertainment?
Poll ended at Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:52 pm
I am offended, Janet and Justin should be sued for indecent exposure and public lewdness. 19%  19%  [ 10 ]
Don't be a prude. In fact, men should tear off womens clothing in public more often! 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
Don't be a prude. In fact, women should tear off their own clothing in public more often! 15%  15%  [ 8 ]
Children should be exposed to more of this. Let's add it to the curriculum! 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Nursing a baby is a beautiful thing. 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Hey, I take my thrills where I can get them! 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Aw shoot, I missed the whole thing! 15%  15%  [ 8 ]
There was a Superbowl? 21%  21%  [ 11 ]
Does anybody have the lyrics to "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious?" 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Oh, the humanity! 15%  15%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 53
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:21 am 
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The Weekenders wrote:
cynical hipsters from MTV

You can't possibly be serious!

Hipster:
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MTV's CEO Tom Freston:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:09 pm 
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Rando7 wrote:
french wrote:
"

talked about the janet-justin issue at lunch with my european colleagues - and all i got was a bunch of, "yeah sure, they show people getting bombed and their head blown off on tv every night and the americans get riled up about a breast."

- tom


I am an American but don't watch much TV so maybe I am missing something here. What are these shows that show people getting bombed and their heads blown off every night?



actually, i must tell the rest of the story. the europeans claimed that even american cartoons are violent. i couldn't deny that as a kid in america many a toon character was blown to smithereens. i countered, "but we knew that wasn't real!" they countered, "same with janet..."


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:16 pm 
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The Weekenders wrote:
I tried to make the point earlier in this thread that the sexual themes have replaced the blood and gore on tv (except movie re-runs), but people are always behind the times in their prejudices. It's old news... let the Euros jeer in their ignorance.

The most frustrating thing to me is this predictable cycle: cynical hipsters from MTV who want everything to be degraded to their sex and drug lifestyle purposely pull this stunt, then roll their eyes at the reaction. It validates their "alienation" from mainstream society while simultaneously feeding the capitalist beast of entertainment spectacle. It's a Howard Stern world, if they get their way (which deep down, they probably don't really want, because they are "naughty boys and girls" and revel in the distinction). BTW, these are the same people who wish we were more "like the Europeans" in terms of "attitudes about sex." I have been hearing that canard since the late 60s.

This will continue seemingly forever unless we have government control, which under our system, will be fought from both sides of the political spectrum. Square folk also have the capacity to use consumer power and do on occasion.

Savage made the point the other day that there is no seeming bottom in the fall to depravity and moralists must endure the scorn to insist on some standards. In a religion-free humanist society, there IS no concept of depraved, only provable criminal behavior, and with enough psychiatric/psychological temporizing, that behavior is limited.

Though its obviously singular, the recent case in Germany of the homosexual cannibal, who got an eight-year sentence for dismembering and consuming the better part of a willing participant, sets a new low in secular depravity. In the first place, the guy runs the ad, which is allowed to begin with, somewhere. In the depraved society there are plenty of outlets for this kind of expression, without moralists to object, ban or otherwise oppress.

As an example, I wanted to buy a wallet for my kid's birthday gift. I key in Bay Area leather accessories. Most of the hits were S&M related...sheesh.

I am not singling out Germany, as you can see from above, although that judge should be a source of world curiosity. Our papers haven't even mentioned the case, oddly enough. More consumed with Laci, Michael and Janet, I guess. Other levels of depravity.

But the activist judge apparently determined that he was not criminally malicious (need help from German chiffsters here) to my understanding.
To me, this is all about empowered psychological and psychiatric views, which replace religious-based judgement in the New Secular Order, and explain away criminality. EIGHT YEARS!!

I hope America stays more square, frankly. Laugh all you want.


ok, then :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
if only because you have Savage and morality in the same sentence. that's quite a trick, weeks.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:21 pm 
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The Weekenders wrote:
But the activist judge apparently determined that he was not criminally malicious (need help from German chiffsters here) to my understanding.
To me, this is all about empowered psychological and psychiatric views, which replace religious-based judgement in the New Secular Order, and explain away criminality. EIGHT YEARS!!



First please bear in mind, that I may pick the wrong word to describe and it may fit to harsh even it is not meant like this.

This is sureley not the first case of cannibalism which got handled in courts but this time, at least in Germany it is a first as in a cannibal who eats the victim not against but refering to his will. There is much more information behind this case which I cannot give here but basically "tragically two men meet on the internet. One wants to be castrated and get a kick out of it even it means death from it and the other one wants to eat man flesh. They get together and go ahead. psychopaths? maybe although the cannibal was qualified as "normal" other than that obsession.

Why 8 years? Well I am not a juristically trained person but from what I understand is, this case could not be handled as a normal capital crime "murder" in the end by the judge and was spoken as "Totschlag". This is justice technicalities which are different in every country I can presume. In Germany in the case of murder it could have meant life sentence which I believe is about 20 years. Sentences could be extended into a "safety lockage" after this time if the person is determined a psychopath and a danger to society because of this. As he is no psychopath by medical judging and as there seems to be no more threat he does it again (it might be hard to find another one to want the same I presume) as it looks to you the 8 years might be all he gets. Well be asured the eight years are not the last word as it is already brought forward to the high court to be revisioned. In any case you can only speak justice over crimes which have been already determined as crimes and this case for certain is "new" and there is obviously need to look into it and find out where to place it just in case it gets epidemic.....

About the judge:
Es handelt sich um ein in unserer zivilisierten Gesellschaft geächtetes Verhalten, den Kannibalismus», sagte Richter Volker Mütze in der Urteilsbegründung. «Wir befinden uns im Grenzbereich des Strafrechts, da Erfahrungswerte fehlen.» Da Kannibalismus kein Straftatbestand ist, hatte das Gericht mit dem Verfahren Neuland betreten. Günstig auf das Strafmaß habe sich das umfassende Geständnis von Meiwes und das formale Einverständnis des Opfers ausgewirkt.
Für beide war der andere das Instrument zur Erfüllung der eigenen Wünsche», sagte Mütze. Beide hätten in einer von ihrem normalen Leben abgeschotteten Welt des Internets mit ihren Fantasien und Vorstellungen gelebt.» Der Prozess habe aufgedeckt, dass sich in der Subkultur des Internets nicht nur viele Menschen mit Kinderpornografie sondern auch mit Kannibalismus beschäftigten. «Hier leben Menschen ihre Fantasien aus, denen eigentlich Hilfe zuteil werden muss.»

I think this says it all about him and that he acted how I would want a judge to act refering to our laws and understanding of the "Rechtstaat".

www.systransoft.com can help with the translation. I did not want to change his words.

He pointed out about the problems the internet brings with it, as it gives people like pedophiles and cannibals the space to meet maybe this is what needs looking into. The websites which give the space that suspicious people can meet there needs to be fought as well.

Brigitte

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:29 pm 
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Which reminds me I have been meaning to Inbite you for Supper Brigitte

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:40 pm 
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Thanks Brigitte for info. Like I said, there is scant information here about it beyond the quick flash of the sentence and re-cap of crime.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:40 pm 
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The Weekenders wrote:
But the activist judge apparently determined that he was not criminally malicious (need help from German chiffsters here) to my understanding.
To me, this is all about empowered psychological and psychiatric views, which replace religious-based judgement in the New Secular Order, and explain away criminality. EIGHT YEARS!!

I hope America stays more square, frankly. Laugh all you want.


You lack the system of reference, Weeks. Eight years is a heavy sentence in Germany. The longest sentence normally available under German criminal law is 15 years (called "life" but meaning 15 yrs in practice). Manslaughter (that is non-murder homicide) will get you considerably less than 15 years. Armed Robbery will not usually get you more than 5 years, unless people get hurt or you've done it before, and so forth. Only very exceptionally vicious crimes can get you past 15 years (happened recently for abduction/rape/murder of 2 children). (The German constitution bans capital punishment, btw.) You may remember the outrage when the lunatic who stabbed Monica Seles at a tennis tournament in Hamburg received a sentence of 2 years, suspended for parole plus mandatory psychiatric treatment. These things are always hard to judge outside one's normal experience. For example, many more Germans than American apparently consider a life sentence without parole for someone who wrote two bad checks and stole a slice of pizza under CA's "three-strikes" law ludicrously harsh.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:45 pm 
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Yes, I do lack that reference. Thanks, Bloo.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:50 pm 
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Brigitte wrote:
About the judge:
Es handelt sich um ein in unserer zivilisierten Gesellschaft geächtetes Verhalten, den Kannibalismus», sagte Richter Volker Mütze in der Urteilsbegründung. «Wir befinden uns im Grenzbereich des Strafrechts, da Erfahrungswerte fehlen.» Da Kannibalismus kein Straftatbestand ist, hatte das Gericht mit dem Verfahren Neuland betreten. Günstig auf das Strafmaß habe sich das umfassende Geständnis von Meiwes und das formale Einverständnis des Opfers ausgewirkt.
Für beide war der andere das Instrument zur Erfüllung der eigenen Wünsche», sagte Mütze. Beide hätten in einer von ihrem normalen Leben abgeschotteten Welt des Internets mit ihren Fantasien und Vorstellungen gelebt.» Der Prozess habe aufgedeckt, dass sich in der Subkultur des Internets nicht nur viele Menschen mit Kinderpornografie sondern auch mit Kannibalismus beschäftigten. «Hier leben Menschen ihre Fantasien aus, denen eigentlich Hilfe zuteil werden muss.»


"We are dealing with behavior that is taboo in our civilized society," Judge Volker Muetze stated in the opinion. "We are at the fringes of criminal law, since we lack experience in this area." Since cannibalism is not a defined crime [under the German ciminal code], the court was venturing into uncharted territory. Mitigating factors reducing the sentence were the complete confession of the perpetrator and the formal consent of the victim. Both used the other to fulfill their own desires," Muetze said. "Both men lived detached from their normal lives in a world of the internet with their phantasies and imagination. The trial revealed that in the sub-culture of the internet there are not only many people interested in child ρσяиσפядρђψ but also many interested in cannibalism. "Here there are persons living their phantasies who more properly require help."

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:38 pm 
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CHIFF FIPPLE wrote:
Which reminds me I have been meaning to Inbite you for Supper Brigitte


I go that one :)

Bloomi,
thanks a lot for the translation, I could not have done it half as good.

Brigitte

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:50 pm 
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The Weekenders wrote:
Though its obviously singular, the recent case in Germany of the homosexual cannibal, who got an eight-year sentence for dismembering and consuming the better part of a willing participant, sets a new low in secular depravity. In the first place, the guy runs the ad, which is allowed to begin with, somewhere. In the depraved society there are plenty of outlets for this kind of expression, without moralists to object, ban or otherwise oppress.


That would certainly be a big, sprawling and intrusive government, that could actually ban the very publication of such a thing.

Caj


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:22 pm 
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Right Caj. That was one of my points. But the main point is my criticism for those who scorn and ridicule the moralizing, religious forces within American society who raise consciousness about such outlets and activities. Without a controlling governmental force, we rely on voluntary constraints.

You might think: "Live and let live, get out of my face, Jerry Fallwell." But just as the Greens and other activists bring consciousness about the ruin of the Earth, moralists do the same thing to the ruin of mankind, even if they display weakness and hypocrisy and you don't like their methods. I certainly feel that way about PETA and the Greens.

I prefer to have these annoying forces around and risk their harm, rather than live in a secular vacuum and watch the bottomless sink to depravity (just as the Earth could get unlivable without environmental activism). And the issue from thread, was scorn for our "provincial" backwards, overly-religious American society.

I know that France is facing the issue of secularization in schools and the dialogue seems intense, at least from over here. I think they MIGHT be throwing every baby out with the bathwater OR they are making a courageous stand that is revolutionary. Hard to tell.

That said, I do not believe in moral relativism. I sincerely think that a purely secular humanist society is worse than a semi-religious hypocritical one.

Sometimes, I feel that my sig below is very pertinent.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:38 pm 
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Thank you Weeks. You've said what I've thought- just in a much more intelligible way-

I recently heard a story of a priest who was in a debate with a secularist who told him that they did not want his moral laws imposed upon them.

Later at the meeting the priest began to rifle through this person's personal belongings. When this person became upset, he asked why. The person said because it was "wrong". The priest told the person he did not want to impose moral law on them.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me. But, if those who want to obliterate lmodes of behavior and morals would think about it- our whole existence would be in jepoardy with out some kind of rules.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:55 pm 
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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The Weekenders wrote:
Right Caj. That was one of my points. But the main point is my criticism for those who scorn and ridicule the moralizing, religious forces within American society who raise consciousness about such outlets and activities. Without a controlling governmental force, we rely on voluntary constraints.


Sorry, Weeks. I read your remark above to mean that you thought it bad such an ad was allowed in the first place.

Certainly there's a big difference between moralists who merely wish to "raise consciousness," and those who would "ban, or otherwise oppress." Generally I see scorn and ridicule directed toward the latter rather than the former.

And of course, this is all confused by the fact that 100% of everyone is pro-freedom and anti-censorship and anti-oppression and an above-average driver.

Caj


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