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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:50 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
But lunar is "loo-nuh" for everybody, as far as I know.
Off the original topic, but in northern England there is a back of the throat sound for trailing 'r' that I think may be used left-pond. In the 'lunar', but maybe not the 'lander', of 'lunar lander' maybe? So not 'nuh'.

Thanks to Warner Bros the left pond pronunciation of 'tunes' is maybe one of the first things that many of us of a certain age learned about American speech. I suspect that in the movies and the media "doody" is mainly said in a serious, gruff male voice which makes it stand out more.

When attempting to elicit unrehearsed pronunciations ("what's that oval thing like a guitar called?") those of us that age also run the risk of concerns over nominal aphasia. But after three successes I was rumbled.


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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:58 am 
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Denis

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:15 am 
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I've always wanted to see a historical analysis of accents and their origins, but linguists and historians have a hard time talking to each other.

The American east coast cities all have vaguely similar accents with discernable differences, but a lot of similarities: turning T into D is one of them. It's more avoiding "t" sounds. I grew up in the Phillly region asking for "a glass of wooder" when I was thirsty and living in a Cowney rather than a County.

I've always thought the east coast accent came from irish immigrants, though not in any obvious way. In the US cities immigration patterns would be English followed by Irish and German about equally, then shifting toward italian and Jewish and Polish after 1890 or so. At every point there would be a strong "black" inflection introduced through popular culture and the minstrel show. There has to be some sort of regional/historical origin for all this.

If I ask a linguist about this I usually get blank looks suggesting I've asked a stupid question. Which maybe I have: i'm not a linguist


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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:19 am 
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ecadre wrote:
Denis


That was my first thought as well :)

Denis came to play with us at times when we played for the sets on the Sunday nights in Gleeson's of Coore. Another of music's gentlemen. I have a lovely pic I took when he took a little break, listening to us who were still playing on stage, with a big grin, holding his drink, complete with a skewer with cherries and a little umbrella, as was the way in that place.

On nights like that he'd tempt Jackie Daly into long bouts of polkas that led to some of the locals slagging Jackie for trying to import foreign music into the area. Good times.

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:53 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
So, then - am I right in surmising that Ben's original question wasn't about the voiced T, but about the unpalatalized U? Or was it both after all?

It was about both.

Okay, then. We're on track, now.

benhall.1 wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
* Five punctuation marks in a coherent row: That's got to be some kind of record. :wink:

I count four, excluding the asterisk, which I'm not sure counts as a punctuation mark. :)

Humor me.

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:07 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
so that's why I missed it in the opening question, "Why do Americans say 'doody'?".*

I don't think we need the full stop (period).

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
so that's why I missed it in the opening question, "Why do Americans say 'doody'?".*

I don't think we need the full stop (period).

In the context of the whole sentence, I disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:16 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
If I ask a linguist about this I usually get blank looks suggesting I've asked a stupid question. Which maybe I have: i'm not a linguist

Do I really need to repeat the "There are no stupid questions" truism, here? Any expert should welcome the opportunity to informally educate laity when a question falls within their field, but if it's a matter of not being able to speak plainly, they should say so and apologize. A snooty raised eyebrow gets zero respect out of me.

OTOH, it might actually be that your questions never occurred to them - in which case they should admit it, be decent enough to thank you, and scurry away to do more research. For all I know, maybe my coronal consonant theory hasn't been thought of before, hard as I find that to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:19 pm 
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Yes, the question mark is part of the quote, the period ('.') :D ends the sentence that included the quote.


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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:23 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
PB+J wrote:
For all I know, maybe my coronal consonant theory hasn't been thought of before, hard as I find that to believe.

I have to admit, this thread is the first time I have come across the phrase "coronal consonant". I still have no idea what it means. It's OK ... I'll look it up ...

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:39 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
Likewise with "nuance", "lunar", "super", and "stupid"

Well, that's difficult, isn't it? Ours would be "nyoo-once" (hard 'o' in that second syllable), "loo-nuh" (not "lyoonar), "soo-puh" and "styoopid". In other words, neither "lunar" nor "super" has the "yoo" sound, except that "super" does in the mouths of aristocrats, as with "lute". But lunar is "loo-nuh" for everybody, as far as I know.

I'm allowing for exceptions on both sides of the Pond; my theory is only a general one that suggests that in English, there's a tendency to de-palatalize the U after coronal consonants, and that this tendency has a greater hold in New World English.

As to UK pronunciations of "lunar" and "super", I can only admit my ignorance and plead my reliance on memory and YouTube. I know for certain that I've heard a palatalized U with "lunar", and yesterday I checked YouTube for Brit pronunciations of "super", and in the very first I came upon, the U was palatalized. Not strongly so; it was almost fugitive, but it was there.

I must be being fed the sounds of posher speakers, I suppose.

benhall.1 wrote:
I have to admit, this thread is the first time I have come across the phrase "coronal consonant". I still have no idea what it means. It's OK ... I'll look it up ...

To repeat, coronal consonants are those that involve the tip of the tongue: N, L, S, T, and so on. You find the distinction especially prominent in Arabic, where it affects pronunciation of the definite article. It was only in this thread, upon noting where de-palatalization of the U seems to regularly occur in American English, that I put two and two together; coronal consonants might have more relevance in English pronunciation than may previously have been considered. But again, I doubt I'm covering new ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Depending on the part of the country you are from you will soften quite a few Ts to Ds. Tutti Fruity may be an exception if you are old enough to remember the Little Richard hit of the 50s, but even with that one I've heard Toody Fruity sung quite often. A list of Chicago pronounciations includes the ever so popular and often unnoticed "frunch room" when referring to that room in the front of the house AKA the living room. Then there is the omission of the t in satisfy, with most folk I know thinking they are saying satisfy, while they are actually saying sa-is-fy. Titles are often tidles. But if you ask the same person to slow down and enunciate each syllable of any of those examples they will almost always pronounce and often emphasize that T. We seem to do OK with the T if it is in the beginning of a word. Though there is the ever so famous da instead of the. Perhaps it is because of the th.


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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:01 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
I know for certain that I've heard a palatalized U with "lunar"

I have never heard "lunar" pronounced with an initial "lyoo ..." Not once, in my entire life. Ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:05 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
I know for certain that I've heard a palatalized U with "lunar"

I have never heard "lunar" pronounced with an initial "lyoo ..." Not once, in my entire life. Ever.

You need to crack on with your social climbing, I'm thinking. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Doody
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:30 pm 
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busterbill wrote:
Though there is the ever so famous da instead of the. Perhaps it is because of the th.

Never grew up even near Chicago, but for the longest time my poor Mom gave us kids holy hell for saying "dat", "dese", "dem", and "doze". Don't know whether that was laziness on our part or if we picked it up elsewhere, but she was bound and determined that no child of hers would ever survive to adulthood talking in such a way.

She always was a bit class-conscious, bless her heart.

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