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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:05 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
(before Richard appears to tell us it's actually 'New Britain')
You've done it now. He will be along to tell you that it is NEW BRITAIN.

The John Sheehan clip sticks in my mind as one of the first examples I was given on the web of how an Irish jig rhythm might sound (at the start) together with how it shouldn't sound (when the orchestra comes in).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:15 pm 
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david_h wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
(before Richard appears to tell us it's actually 'New Britain')
You've done it now. He will be along to tell you that it is NEW BRITAIN.

Here's an interesting bit of delving into the subject:

Did Lucius Chapin write the Amazing Grace tune?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:35 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Rieu used the melodic version that does it for me

Yep, I just don't get the alternative third line we sometimes hear with oscillating arpeggio that seems to come from nowhere instead of growing from and mirroring what was already there.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:04 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
Rieu used the melodic version that does it for me

Yep, I just don't get the alternative third line we sometimes hear with oscillating arpeggio that seems to come from nowhere instead of growing from and mirroring what was already there.

I take it you're referring to this melodic version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp61r5W9Q-M

As in the vid, it's reliably found most often in a church service context, whereas the other (which Rieu used) lends itself to wider secular appreciation in a way that the other can't. It could be that what I call the "church version" is what it is, simply because its more constrained structure is thought to ensure that a congregation can better hold its unity when singing it en masse (a proposition I dispute). One is tempted to assume that the church version is the older one, but I don't have the scholarship to take that step. Suffice it to say it's not the version I pick whenever I've played the tune.

It was never part of my church's repertory in any way, shape or form, so the first time I ever heard it was when Judy Collins' famous setting hit the airwaves, and I was imprinted with that version forever after.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:37 pm 
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https://youtu.be/nN7PK_yFU3g?t=1426

:-)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:47 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
Here's a few more:

and the worst of the Paddywhackery:

with John Sheehan (no whistle there)


Will it cheer you up to know that it started out as an English Country Dance tune called "The Country Courtship" , also often used for Rapper Dances ... :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:53 pm 
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ecadre wrote:
Mr.Gumby wrote:
Here's a few more:

and the worst of the Paddywhackery:

with John Sheehan (no whistle there)

Will it cheer you up to know that it started out as an English Country Dance tune called "The Country Courtship" , also often used for Rapper Dances ... :wink:

And the audience is clapping off-rhythm, too. That's the whole package right there.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
I take it you're referring to this melodic version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp61r5W9Q-M

Yes. I just find that third line so comparatively weak.

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As in the vid, it's reliably found most often in a church service context, whereas the other (which Rieu used) lends itself to wider secular appreciation in a way that the other can't. It could be that what I call the "church version" is what it is, simply because its more constrained structure ensures that a congregation can better hold its unity when singing it en masse. One is tempted to assume that the church version is the older one, but I don't have the scholarship to take that step. Suffice it to say it's not the version I pick whenever I've played the tune.

I've wondered if it's more a geographical thing because I'd known the version you and I prefer for donkey's years before becoming aware of the other. I can't really see one as more or less constrained, but do find one more organic. On which note you could argue that we've just decided 'how it goes' from strong first impressions, but I'd counter that my preference has deeper roots in musical logic...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:06 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
I've wondered if it's more a geographical thing ...

You could be spot-on, there; I haven't gone so far as to assume that the "church version" is a distinctly American one, but OTOH I wouldn't be surprised, either.

Peter Duggan wrote:
I can't really see one as more or less constrained, but do find one more organic.

I get what you're saying. But the "church version" always sounds stiff-starched and overly prim to me, as if to be consciously antiseptic - Heaven forfend we should inadvertently loosen up - hence my use of the word "constrained". It's a subjective thing, I guess.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:48 pm 
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Christ! Hasn’t Ireland suffered enough?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:02 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
Christ! Hasn’t Ireland suffered enough?

Oh, there's way more where that came from. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 am 
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Well, well, well . . .

I guess some music is more equal than others . . . but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion. :twisted:

True, the whistling was not trad. But it was musical + expressive in it's own way.
Nanohedron wrote:
Melismacrobatic. . .
Thank you for enlarging my vocabulary !

Mr.Gumby wrote:
Here's a few more:

Last rose of summer

My heart will go on

and the worst of the Paddywhackery:

with John Sheehan (no whistle there)
I had no idea it was a regular item. Sheltered life I guess.

Nanohedron wrote:
bigsciota wrote:
The slight flinch from the lady at 0:26 really makes it for me.

Eye of the beholder, I guess. When I saw it, I thought, Yep. Here come the waterworks, right on cue. What I didn't expect were the numbers; I confess that I cynically wondered if I weren't witnessing a paid claque.
Seriously ? In a group/concert setting ? Such a beautiful piece of music, with it's full message of personal pain + reconciliation?

After all, Amazing Grace is so widely+well known, each person has their own "internal" version of it. That version includes what it sounded like as well as all the other "meanings" that come from context (e.g. funerals, church services, ...). Hearing a version, any version, brings that all back.

I'm not surprised one bit at the waterworks. I wish I had been there.

When I grow up, I hope to be able to ornament + twiddle at will the way Rieu whistler did. Along with trad too.

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trill


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:59 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
One is tempted to assume that the church version is the older one, but I don't have the scholarship to take that step.

Neither do I, but if you look at the tune as written in the Lucius Chapin manuscript in the article you linked to, his version seems to be somewhere halfway between the two:

B2 | d4 Bd | G4

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:17 am 
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Quote:
Christ! Hasn’t Ireland suffered enough?


Rieu's orchestra is a sort of novelty act with a repertoire mainly consisting of Vienna Waltzes. Strauss, a speciality. The whole dress up vibe and jollity of it is excruciating to some, a large audience loves it. And he plays to that audience by throwing in bits of this and that, guests and other music that may appeal. A bit like the latter day Chieftains, I nearly said. With, as Nano said, buckets of mawk and plastering it on rather thickly.

He seems to enjoy the show and all the trappings, lives in a castle and some twenty five years ago bought a Strad that he sold soon afterward, some suggesting he couldn't quite handle it (but that may have been just the begrudgers talking). He's a showman, anyway. and likes the shiny, blingy things.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:26 am 
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Andre Rieu is the Thomas Kinkade of music. https://thomaskinkade.com/

Bathos!

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My late father in law liked him. I remember watching some youtube clip of Rieu with him and thinking "pull yourself together man!"


Last edited by PB+J on Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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