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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:50 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
"A pillow's a pillow" -I don't think so. The pillow bought was $16. It came rolled in a plastic bag. This should have been a warning to the quality. I got it home and lay down on it. A napkin might have offered more support. I could not return the pillow, this was stipulated when I purchased it, but still my money was refunded and the pillow went to the trash.

What should have been the first warning to you was not so much that the pillow was rolled up, but the $16 price tag. But - live and learn, as they say. It's great that you got your money back, but if you still have the pillow waiting in the trash yet, and just so it doesn't go to waste, your cat might like it as a bed. Even though it's unsuitable as a human's pillow, there might still be any number of other uses for it.

A decent manufactured traditional Western pillow - IOW, one that will be comfortable, supportive, and will hold up for years - is always going to be relatively expensive; but even though it stings, $50 shouldn't be thought exorbitant if good is what you want. Anything costing less, and I start questioning if I want to buy what in all probability won't be quite right, or won't serve me long-term, or both. And I've been there; the story's the same every time. Among good pillows, I consider Lindell's prices to be quite competitive. On its own terms, I think of a pillow as more of a long-term investment in my physical and emotional well-being, rather than merely a generic commodity. As you have now learned, one is not going to be just as good as any other. With pillows as with many things, you do indeed get what you pay for.

I've seen pillows going for $150 and more, but for my needs, I don't see the point.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:42 pm 
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I considered the MyPillow once. This because when I was mattress shopping and testing one, I actually really liked the pillow at the store, which was filled with shredded foam. My neck is very picky, like Goldilocks, and if my pillow isn't just right (too flat, too fat, too hard, if it compresses under my head the wrong way, if it has a lump, etc.), I'll end up with a neckache that can lead to a headache and/or keep me from sleeping. I prefer pillows with a filling I can move around to suit rather than an immovable lump of batting or foam.


Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
I like the look of that first one. Also, the buckwheat ...

As to buckwheat hulls, I give them a resounding thumbs up. They allow the pillow to breathe, so it's cooling, and although the pillow isn't fluffy but is instead quite firm and heavier than the usual, it's still very comfortable, because if you like you can easily shape it to conform to you, and it offers great support. It crunches a bit when you move, but that never bothered me.


I considered a buckwheat hull pillow once for my neck. But after some people described them as hard, I wasn't sure if they'd work for me, especially since I'd never been able to see/touch one in person ("hard" is one of the triggers for my neck). In the end, I figured it would be a lot to spend for something I may end up hating (and a pillow is a thing that's sort of too personal to pass on to someone else, especially a specialized type pillow).

There are also millet hulls as a pillow filling... and some manufacturers make a pillow that has both-- flip the pillow to the side you like best (that's what I would have bought).


an seanduine wrote:
Kapok. Used it for my zafu. They used to use cat-tails (pu2tuan2) but now they use kapok.

Bob


That was another fill I had considered... I figured it was probably sort of the natural version of synthetic down.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:55 pm 
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Katharine wrote:
I considered a buckwheat hull pillow once for my neck. But after some people described them as hard, I wasn't sure if they'd work for me, especially since I'd never been able to see/touch one in person ("hard" is one of the triggers for my neck). --- I prefer pillows with a filling I can move around to suit rather than an immovable lump of batting or foam.

You're right; you'd have to try one to find out. But let me offer some insights in the meantime:

Those who describe the sobagara-makura, or buckwheat hull pillow, as "hard" may not have explored its full potential, because it's just like a bean bag, and bean bags are of course malleable. A buckwheat hull pillow needn't simply lie featureless: like a bean bag, it can conform in any way you like to your head and neck; the firmness is what gives support. So it might actually be what you're looking for. TBH, I was quite surprised at how comfortable I found it, and for me the filling's natural woody/grassy scent was comforting. But that's just me; YMMV. Some people just don't like them; others rave. My personal opinion? Negative reviews are either going to be from those who are genuinely very sensitive to certain stimuli such as sound or smell; or maybe they didn't think to explore the pillow's beanbag-like potential; or at worst they're going to be that species of Internet troll who thrives on badmouthing any old thing simply for the sport of putting a turd in the punchbowl. So needless to say, there's also going to be misinformation - no doubt some of it well-intentioned, but misinformation nonetheless: For example, contrary to what some mistakenly say, a reputable maker's filling will NOT be the unhulled seeds, but only the hulls alone. I mean, think about it: seeds would be the waste of a precious food resource; hulls are something that would otherwise be thrown away, but here find a use. This misunderstanding is why I dislike doing the lazy thing by simply calling them buckwheat pillows; it's too easy for the uninformed to jump to wrong conclusions. It's not that herculean a task to add a space and type "hull".

Personal, first-hand experience is really the only way for you to know if you'll like it. Some companies might have return policies, which is an attractive possibility. Be aware of sourcing, though: look for thoroughly-cleansed and preferably organically-raised hulls, because cheaper imported hulls will often have been fumigated or otherwise exposed to hazardous chemicals. The pillow should also be sunned outdoors from time to time to help reduce any accumulated moisture retention in the filling, and to forestall mildew. That said, I was lazy and never sunned my pillow, yet never experienced any mold, mildew, or other unpleasantness. But it bears saying all the same; forewarned is forearmed. We are dealing with natural materials, after all.

As in the picture I showed earlier, some of these pillows' shells come with zippers nowadays, and that's what I'd go with, because that way you can easily add or remove hulls to suit your comfort level. So if a zippered pillow comes to you stuffed too full for your liking, no worries; you still get to modify the pillow's volume if and as you like. Just don't throw away the hulls you take out, though, because later on you might want to put some back in.

Hope that helps.

When I was an exchange student in Japan, our dorm bedding included a very odd but decidedly modernistic take on the traditional buckwheat hull pillow concept: a mesh bag filled with short little plastic tubes not unlike the licorice candy called Snaps, for those of you who know of it:

Image

Size pictured is enlarged, and the tubes weren't as psychedelic, but were colorless and translucent. Just giving you the general idea, here. Now I want some Snaps.

Anyway, I was already personally familiar with buckwheat hull pillows, so I recognized the fundamental concept right away, but when I first saw this tubelets-in-mesh iteration I was most dubious: How on Earth, I thought, can hard plastic tubelets be comfortable? Buckwheat hulls, I get. But to my surprise, somehow it actually worked, and interestingly, the tubes weren't an instrusive sensation. To this day I can't figure that out. And as you might imagine, it was well-aerated, which added to the comfort. And cleaning, of course, would be a [*ahem*] snap. Jut pop it in the washing machine. Still, though - it doesn't get any more institutional than that. It might have been comfortable, but it never rose to the level of being my friend: it was just this dystopian, synthetic ... thing. I'll bet you get those in jail, too - but I'm afraid I was too slippery to get caught, so I never had the actual pleasure of finding out. :wink:

It only now occurs to me that I don't recall ever discussing those bizarre little pillows from Mars with my fellow exchange students, so they must have made the adjustment with only culture clash for trouble, just as I had.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:59 pm 
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What should have been the first warning to you was not so much that the pillow was rolled up, but the $16 price tag.

It was a Seely product so I thought, mayhpas foolishly, it was a quality pillow.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:12 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
It was a Seely product so I thought, mayhpas foolishly, it was a quality pillow.

Sealy, of all things ... well, I'm surprised they'd even offer something for $16, much less call it a pillow. All told, Michael, you gotta go by price. Even Sealy proves it. Better yet, you should go brick-and-mortar and handle the product yourself before you buy; when I ordered from MyPillow, I hated the idea that I had no choice but to go on faith. Fortunately, I wasn't disappointed in the product.

Ever intend to use the quote function? :poke:

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:26 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Michael w6 wrote:
It was a Seely product so I thought, mayhpas foolishly, it was a quality pillow.

Sealy, of all things ... well, I'm surprised they'd even offer something for $16, much less call it a pillow. All told, Michael, you gotta go by price. Even Sealy proves it. Better yet, you should go brick-and-mortar and handle the product yourself before you buy; when I ordered from MyPillow, I hated the idea that I had no choice but to go on faith. Fortunately, I wasn't disappointed in the product.

Ever intend to use the quote function? :poke:

The Cut & Paste, while primitive, allows me to quote just the portion of a response I that is relevant, rather than the entire text. This seems efficient. Remember I'm a Luddite, barely beyond horse and buggy. When I tell people I have no portable electronics, still use a landline and do not have TV I'm looked at like I'm an alien freak.

Just today I saw a My Pillow pillow in CVS. It was a travel pillow for $25 or so. May be worth a try.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:45 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
The Cut & Paste, while primitive, allows me to quote just the portion of a response I that is relevant, rather than the entire text. This seems efficient. Remember I'm a Luddite, barely beyond horse and buggy. When I tell people I have no portable electronics, still use a landline and do not have TV I'm looked at like I'm an alien freak.

Efficient for you, but difficult for your reader. Using the quote function is a point of courtesy. We've explained how to pick and choose from text during the process, and I encourage you to revisit the advice and learn it. It's not hard, and you will find even such a small skill as that to be empowering. If you like, you can practice in the Test Forum; that's what it's for. You don't even have to leave the evidence; you can always delete it as you go. And above all, we're always here to help, and glad to do it. :)

Michael w6 wrote:
Just today I saw a My Pillow pillow in CVS. It was a travel pillow for $25 or so. May be worth a try.

Well, just keep in mind that trying to pay as little as possible hasn't worked so well up to now, so you might want to weigh whether an additional $25 worth of nothing is the way you really want to go; it's rapidly mounting up to the cost of a truly decent pillow already. Give it a shot, but seriously, to me the words "travel pillow" do not bode well for home use, much less suggest a longterm investment in one's wellbeing.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:59 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Katharine wrote:
I considered a buckwheat hull pillow once for my neck. But after some people described them as hard, I wasn't sure if they'd work for me, especially since I'd never been able to see/touch one in person ("hard" is one of the triggers for my neck). --- I prefer pillows with a filling I can move around to suit rather than an immovable lump of batting or foam.

You're right; you'd have to try one to find out. But let me offer some insights in the meantime:

Those who describe the sobagara-makura, or buckwheat hull pillow, as "hard" may not have explored its full potential, because it's just like a bean bag, and bean bags are of course malleable. A buckwheat hull pillow needn't simply lie featureless: like a bean bag, it can conform in any way you like to your head and neck; the firmness is what gives support. So it might actually be what you're looking for. TBH, I was quite surprised at how comfortable I found it, and for me the filling's natural woody/grassy scent was comforting. But that's just me; YMMV. Some people just don't like them; others rave. My personal opinion? Negative reviews are either going to be from those who are genuinely very sensitive to certain stimuli such as sound or smell; or maybe they didn't think to explore the pillow's beanbag-like potential; or at worst they're going to be that species of Internet troll who thrives on badmouthing any old thing simply for the sport of putting a turd in the punchbowl. So needless to say, there's also going to be misinformation - no doubt some of it well-intentioned, but misinformation nonetheless: For example, contrary to what some mistakenly say, a reputable maker's filling will NOT be the unhulled seeds, but only the hulls alone. I mean, think about it: seeds would be the waste of a precious food resource; hulls are something that would otherwise be thrown away, but here find a use. This misunderstanding is why I dislike doing the lazy thing by simply calling them buckwheat pillows; it's too easy for the uninformed to jump to wrong conclusions. It's not that herculean a task to add a space and type "hull".

Personal, first-hand experience is really the only way for you to know if you'll like it. Some companies might have return policies, which is an attractive possibility. Be aware of sourcing, though: look for thoroughly-cleansed and preferably organically-raised hulls, because cheaper imported hulls will often have been fumigated or otherwise exposed to hazardous chemicals. The pillow should also be sunned outdoors from time to time to help reduce any accumulated moisture retention in the filling, and to forestall mildew. That said, I was lazy and never sunned my pillow, yet never experienced any mold, mildew, or other unpleasantness. But it bears saying all the same; forewarned is forearmed. We are dealing with natural materials, after all.

As in the picture I showed earlier, some of these pillows' shells come with zippers nowadays, and that's what I'd go with, because that way you can easily add or remove hulls to suit your comfort level. So if a zippered pillow comes to you stuffed too full for your liking, no worries; you still get to modify the pillow's volume if and as you like. Just don't throw away the hulls you take out, though, because later on you might want to put some back in.

Hope that helps.

When I was an exchange student in Japan, our dorm bedding included a very odd but decidedly modernistic take on the traditional buckwheat hull pillow concept: a mesh bag filled with short little plastic tubes not unlike the licorice candy called Snaps, for those of you who know of it:

Image

Size pictured is enlarged, and the tubes weren't as psychedelic, but were colorless and translucent. Just giving you the general idea, here. Now I want some Snaps.

Anyway, I was already personally familiar with buckwheat hull pillows, so I recognized the fundamental concept right away, but when I first saw this tubelets-in-mesh iteration I was most dubious: How on Earth, I thought, can hard plastic tubelets be comfortable? Buckwheat hulls, I get. But to my surprise, somehow it actually worked, and interestingly, the tubes weren't an instrusive sensation. To this day I can't figure that out. And as you might imagine, it was well-aerated, which added to the comfort. And cleaning, of course, would be a [*ahem*] snap. Jut pop it in the washing machine. Still, though - it doesn't get any more institutional than that. It might have been comfortable, but it never rose to the level of being my friend: it was just this dystopian, synthetic ... thing. I'll bet you get those in jail, too - but I'm afraid I was too slippery to get caught, so I never had the actual pleasure of finding out. :wink:

It only now occurs to me that I don't recall ever discussing those bizarre little pillows from Mars with my fellow exchange students, so they must have made the adjustment with only culture clash for trouble, just as I had.


My problem with "hard," though, comes even if a fluffy-fill pillow gets too compressed, or smushed in the right way. (Seriously. My neck can be a snowflake, lol.)

I had actually even considered making my own, just getting good hulls and putting them in a zipper pillowcase.

(And yes, I wouldn't want the full kernel in there. If for no other reason than, I would be afraid I'd get bugs in munching my pillow filling...yuck.)

Now I want Snaps, too (or, Good-n-Plentys would suffice)...


Michael w6 wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
Michael w6 wrote:
It was a Seely product so I thought, mayhpas foolishly, it was a quality pillow.

Sealy, of all things ... well, I'm surprised they'd even offer something for $16, much less call it a pillow. All told, Michael, you gotta go by price. Even Sealy proves it. Better yet, you should go brick-and-mortar and handle the product yourself before you buy; when I ordered from MyPillow, I hated the idea that I had no choice but to go on faith. Fortunately, I wasn't disappointed in the product.

Ever intend to use the quote function? :poke:

The Cut & Paste, while primitive, allows me to quote just the portion of a response I that is relevant, rather than the entire text. This seems efficient. Remember I'm a Luddite, barely beyond horse and buggy. When I tell people I have no portable electronics, still use a landline and do not have TV I'm looked at like I'm an alien freak.

Just today I saw a My Pillow pillow in CVS. It was a travel pillow for $25 or so. May be worth a try.


No worries... you can delete any part of the quote you want.


Nanohedron wrote:
Well, just keep in mind that trying to pay as little as possible hasn't worked so well up to now, so you might want to weigh whether an additional $25 worth of nothing is the way you really want to go; it's rapidly mounting up to the cost of a truly decent pillow already. Give it a shot, but seriously, to me the words "travel pillow" do not bode well for home use, much less suggest a longterm investment in one's wellbeing.


I think it depends. IIRC, the "travel" version of My Pillow is just smaller, right? It's not one of the horseshoe-shaped ones? So, it could possibly work for someone who has a small head and doesn't move around a lot. I've had times I've wondered what on earth I have all of that extra pillow real estate for; my head probably only takes up a quarter of a standard-size (American) pillow...

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:14 pm 
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Katharine wrote:
I had actually even considered making my own, just getting good hulls and putting them in a zipper pillowcase.

Nothing wrong with that. I say go for it. I suppose I needn't remind you to be sure of your of sourcing, because you said "good hulls", but one can be such a worrywart.

Katharine wrote:
IIRC, the "travel" version of My Pillow is just smaller, right?

I don't know, because TBH I lost any further interest in the product a long time ago. When the ads come on, I tune them out and just Google stuff on the smartphone or go off to take a leak; even being immersed in picking my nose is a better use of my time.

Katharine wrote:
So, it could possibly work for someone who has a small head and doesn't move around a lot. I've had times I've wondered what on earth I have all of that extra pillow real estate for; my head probably only takes up a quarter of a standard-size (American) pillow...

I'm a pinhead, dammit, not a hair-shirted ascetic. I like real estate. My queen size pillow is the vast province, the wide open spaces, the boundless prairie that is my tiny head's domain and anointed throne (which reminds me - I must do laundry). Besides, there's a certain animal satisfaction in being able to hook my arm under it; can't do that with a small pillow, at least not in any meaningful way.

On the day I shave my head, don the robe and take the precepts, then will I enter upon the Way of the Small Pillow.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:08 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
On the day I shave my head, don the robe and take the precepts, then will I enter upon the Way of the Small Pillow.


Good Lord! Is that a ´Middle Way´? :o Or a ´Middlin´ Way´? :twisted:

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:38 am 
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an seanduine wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
On the day I shave my head, don the robe and take the precepts, then will I enter upon the Way of the Small Pillow.


Good Lord! Is that a ´Middle Way´? :o Or a ´Middlin´ Way´? :twisted:

Bob

I feel like I'm missing something here, Bob ... :-?

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:26 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
an seanduine wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
On the day I shave my head, don the robe and take the precepts, then will I enter upon the Way of the Small Pillow.


Good Lord! Is that a ´Middle Way´? :o Or a ´Middlin´ Way´? :twisted:

Bob

I feel like I'm missing something here, Bob ... :-?

I guess it behooves someone to explain that at this point, Ben, you're looking at a playful exchange in idle - or not-so-idle - Dharmaspeak, let's call it. With "Middlin'", Bob has clarified his challenge. And in its way, the response is also a recognition of a kindred spirit. Pretty normal stuff within that context.

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:46 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
I guess it behooves someone to explain that at this point, Ben, you're looking at a playful exchange in idle - or not-so-idle - Dharmaspeak, let's call it. With "Middlin'", Bob has clarified his challenge. And in its way, the response is also a recognition of a kindred spirit. Pretty normal stuff within that context.

Thanks. Clear as mud. :sniffle:

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:54 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
I guess it behooves someone to explain that at this point, Ben, you're looking at a playful exchange in idle - or not-so-idle - Dharmaspeak, let's call it. With "Middlin'", Bob has clarified his challenge. And in its way, the response is also a recognition of a kindred spirit. Pretty normal stuff within that context.

Thanks. Clear as mud. :sniffle:

Oh, dear. Then I have to say that I'm missing what you're missing. I'm not being cryptic, here; just not sure of your focus.

Let me try this: Bob has always been easily identifiable as a Zen practitioner (lay, I assume). But shaving one's head, donning the robe and taking the precepts indicates a step further: it's a conventional Buddhist analogy for joining the monastic community, and Zen monastics in particular lead a very spartan, highly disciplined and quite formalized life - even how you wash your face, eat, and sleep are closely prescribed. Accordingly, I envision their sleeping pillows (if any) to be quite small, so that's where that came from. Not that I was trolling, but you could say that Bob took the bait, but with good humor and, at the same time, serious intent.

Does that help?

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 Post subject: Re: SLEEP!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:08 pm 
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It does help a bit. I didn't know a lot of that. I still don't get where the "middle way" and "middlin' way" come in ... Do those phrases mean something?

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