Irish Speak

[Nanohedron]

My own family have their willful pronunciation sins to atone for, too: "We're making br'shedda. Want some?" "No, thanks. But I'll take some brusketta if you have it."

Been there, done that. Once heard a coworker refer to "brooshetta." I told her it's "broosketta." She corrected me: "No, it's brooshetta."

And then there was the time at a restaurant when we finished up with prosciutto and melon, as did the table next to us; our parties had been sharing conversation with each other, which was nice, until the young lady let "proSKWEEdoe" fall from her lips. "Oh dear," I said; "I always thought it was 'proSHOOT-toe'." "No. it's 'proSKWEEdoe'. I should know. I'm Italian."

Oy...

We won't speak of the time she saw a coworker wearing a football jersey for "Deutschland"...

Oh, okay, yes we will, because it's hilarious and I'm only making fun of her because, again, it wasn't a word with which she was familiar or had probably ever heard pronounced, so it was an honest mistake but still dang funny. "Wait, come back here!" she said as he walked past. "Does your shirt say 'doucheland'???"

Saw that coming from a mile away.

I remember hearing classmates being corrected by teachers that you don't "warsh" your dishes or write with a "pin" or drink "melk." I was always jealous of kids who went to speech therapy (not having any idea at the time what it actually was; I just knew it was something "special" that they "got to" do-- "Oh, April is leaving class to go to 'speech'."). It seemed there were a lot of them, but that recollection can't be correct.

At any rate, no doubt some of the kids who went to speech therapy still speak that way. I assume these classes mostly took place in the first few grades and then were no more, and I suppose if the kid hadn't picked it up by that time-- for whatever reason-- they probably weren't harassed too much about it after that.

And that's a different kettle of fish, isn't it. I have a bone to pick with people who think that regional pronunciations are, for some reason, "wrong". When it comes to speech therapy, there's a world of difference between having difficulty with forming words, and merely regional peculiarities. It sounds to me as if all those students were targeted for a coup by someone's idea of American Received Pronunciation, whatever the hell that's supposed to be.

Look - I met a woman, a docent with a doctorate in History, Louisiana born and bred. Her habit was to say "axe" rather than "ask", and that's simply a regionalism that one will encounter from time to time. Sure, for me it grated, but it literally goes with the territory. A lot of people subconsciously knock down IQ points for it, but that's a huge mistake. She didn't get that PhD for nothing.

[PB+J]

Been there, done that. Once heard a coworker refer to "brooshetta." I told her it's "broosketta." She corrected me: "No, it's brooshetta." Yeah, the person who sings in Italian wouldn't have a clue about the pronunciation of the language, you're right... (admittedly, I've never studied it as a language, but then, neither has she). I let it go.

I did study the language, and lived in Rome for four months as a student, and they pronounce it Brooshet-ta. It's a Rome thing. They say "shingquashento" for "500" instead of "chincquachento." I call it brooshet-ta because that's what everybody in Rome called it when I was there. Course that was a long time ago, so maybe that roman accent is gone, but no kidding, everybody said Brooshet-ta

On one of our visits to Ireland we met with the teenage daughters of some of my wife's relatives. They could hear the difference between my philly accent and my brother in law's Louisiana accent, but they preferred my Philly accent, which I found hard to believe since the Philly accent is a pretty raw thing in its unfiltered from. Mine has probably moderated over time, or they may have mistaken it for a NYC accent like they hear in movies and TV

[Nanohedron]

I did study the language, and lived in Rome for four months as a student, and they pronounce it Brooshet-ta. It's a Rome thing. They say "shingquashento" for "500" instead of "chincquachento." I call it brooshet-ta because that's what everybody in Rome called it when I was there. Course that was a long time ago, so maybe that roman accent is gone, but no kidding, everybody said Brooshet-ta

Dammit - now I have to start making allowances, curse you. I'd forgotten that regional Italian counts, and that Roman Italian is a thing unto itself.

[an seanduine]

My friend from the Amalfi coast has a dual language kit. In school near Napoli he was taught more-or-less a consensus Italian. ´Downhome´ is a little different. When he makes his annual pilgrimage home coming in through Rome, the school version suffices. Leaving the train depot at Napoli he is always confronted by the hawkers and peddlars, who often take him for a tourist because of his clothes. He sometimes has to tell them to bugger off, and says ´then the language starts to come out!´. It´s all part of the process of getting ready to deal with the relatives.

Bob

[an seanduine]

My brother, living in Massachusetts, pronounced Worchester as Wooster, only drifting a little from Wuss´ter. He also claimed the proper pronunciation of Massachusetts as ´tax-a-chusetts´.

Bob

[PB+J]

Philly was full of Sicilian words, which were not italian words. A lot of them were insults or referred to food; a lot involved dropping endings, like "proszute" for prosciutto or "gabagole" for capicola or capocollo

[Nanohedron]

Philly was full of Sicilian words [...] like "proszute" for prosciutto ...

I've definitely heard that one before - but I'd always assumed it was strictly an American variation.

[an seanduine]

Lingua Italiana mostly derives from the Tuscan, which was derived from vulgate latin. Tuscan in its purest form was primarily a literate form. My buddy Otto would just roll his eyes when I asked about Sicilian. When I asked about Rome, he simply said ´Rome is something else.´ The Sicilians incorporated a lot of Greek culture, and is ,along with Sardinia, one of the last strongholds for the
launnedas, a form of the classic greek aulos. Otto, my buddy from the Amalfi, said he had difficulty understanding Sardinian.

Bob

[benhall.1]

My brother, living in Massachusetts, pronounced Worchester as Wooster, only drifting a little from Wuss´ter. He also claimed the proper pronunciation of Massachusetts as ´tax-a-chusetts´.

Bob

"Wooster" is pretty much right, as long as the "oo" rhymes with the "oo" in "football". By the way, there's no 'h' in Worcester. (Unless there's a separate place, maybe in the States, called "Worchester" - there isn't, is there?)

[an seanduine]

Oops! Right-o Ben, That would be Worcester. No surprise this region is called New England.

Bob

[benhall.1]

Oops! Right-o Ben, That would be Worcester. No surprise this region is called New England.

Bob

I've just had a look at the place names in New England. Wow! I knew that there were a lot of British place names in the US, but I had no idea quite how many there are! And almost all the counties seem to be called after UK counties, too. It probably seems obvious to you guys over there, but it's a bit of a revelation to me.

[an seanduine]

There are also a lot of little cultural bits in the region that echo England. Villages, as opposed to towns. Commons and greens and even ´greenswards´. Peculiarities in local government forms and practices. Some of these can be encountered elsewhere, but seldom on the West Coast, and almost never here in what we call ´The upper-left-hand corner´.

Bob

[brianholton]

So while we're at it, how many non-Scots can pronounce 'Kirkcudbright'? Or 'Kirkcaldy', or 'Milngavie' correctly? (Even if Milngavie is derived from Gaelic, I'm not going near pure Gaelic place names.)

Probably just as many Scots can't handle Danish names either, mind you.

BTW 'loch' is never ever pronounced 'lock'. That's a handy shibboleth for identifying Anglostanis, white settlers, and blow-ins.

And while I think about it, there's an old story about a US academic visiting the UK, who after spending time in London, went to Glasgow, where he said to his hosts that he'd heard English people refer to Jocks and Sweaties (rhyming slang: sweaty sock=Jock), but he hadn't heard what nicknames Scots have for English people. There was a long pause, and his answer was "... Well, the subject just never comes up".

Enjoy your day. Stay well, stay safe.

All the best from the beautiful Borderland.

[benhall.1]

So while we're at it, how many non-Scots can pronounce 'Kirkcudbright'? Or 'Kirkcaldy', or 'Milngavie' correctly?

The only one of those I knew was Kirkcaldy. I think I've just heard it more often that the others. I've heard the name Milngavie a few times, but had forgotten how to pronounce it. I had no idea how to pronounce Kirkcudbright, although when I looked it up, I realised that I had heard it plenty of times - it's just that I didn't know that it was the same place as the place spelled Kirkcudbright!

The part of Scotland that I know and love best - up near Kyle of Lochalsh - seems to have easier to pronounce place names.

[PB+J]

This pertains to Irish. My dissertation directors, a very eminent historian in his day, grew up the son of Russian Jewish immigrants and had a thick NY accent. Out of college he applied for a job as a teacher in the NY pubic schools. You had to pass an elocution test: you weren't supposed to speak regional English, you were supposed to speak "proper" English. He said all the applicants told the same story--that they took the test and when the examiner gave them the results he said "I'm sorry to tell ye me boy but I'm afraid you've got a bit of a brogue."

And back they went to elocution class. This would have been in the 40s/early 5os