Chiff and Fipple Forums

benhall.1 wrote:They are apparently, exclusively and separately, British and American pronunciations.

Google found something that was wrong. Your colleague pronounces it pap-ree-ka. So that's one.

So do I, and so did my father. So that's three. However, I probably got my pronunciation from my father, and he could have got it in when stationed in New York (or maybe India) in WW2. I doubt his mother ever used the word - her cooking was unsophisticted.

So far I have only had chance to ask one person how to pronounce p-a-p-r-i-k-a. She said pap-rick-uh, but went on to say that my pronunciation was for the fresh peppers.

Any more first-hand info? How did Philip Harben and Fanny Cradock pronounce it?

Well, don't look to us Yanks for a definitive national pronunciation for "cumin" (KUM-in, KOO-min, QUEUE-min) and "pecan" (pee-CAN, PEE-can, PEE-cawn, pee-CAWN, and p'CAWN). I couldn't even tell you how I pronounce them; every time is going to be a surprise. And don't get me started on "jalapeño" and "habanero"; our Anglo butchery makes the heavens weep.

A foreign friend - whose own language is apparently far more prescribed than ours - was bemoaning the difficulty of fielding the variability of English pronunciation, to which I said, "Just pay attention to the consonants; the vowels are a crapshoot. Find a current pronunciation you like, and don't worry if someone corrects you; we all correct each other anyway." Although it's true, rather than helping, it probably just made things worse for him.

david_h wrote:So far I have only had chance to ask one person how to pronounce p-a-p-r-i-k-a. She said pap-rick-uh, but went on to say that my pronunciation was for the fresh peppers.

Not on my soil, it's not. We most commonly say pap-REE-ka for all. Never heard of such a thing...

But in point of fact, "paprika" - however it's pronounced - to us means first of all the dried powder; if we use the same word for fresh peppers, it's in specific reference only to that varietal which gives us the kitchen spice of the same name. Most of the time if we're not being specific, be they fresh or dried, we're just going to say "peppers".

benhall.1 wrote:I'm guessing from the reaction of my Brummie colleague that the British pronunciation of pap-rick-uh is not long for this world.

I doubt it for two reasons: 1) Not on any particular authority, but I suspect that Brits, on the whole, do not so overwhelmingly favor American media as does your colleague, and 2) in any case you are an obstinate lot.

Speaking of which: When are you going to finally capitulate to the culinary (and eminently logical) distinction between coriander and cilantro?

Tunborough wrote:... which reminds me about o-REG-a-no.

Troll you are, to leave us hanging like that. And so you go first: How do you pronounce it?

Nanohedron wrote: to the culinary (and eminently logical) distinction between coriander and cilantro?

What's the logic? Do you have a handy way of remembering which is which?

david_h wrote:

Nanohedron wrote: to the culinary (and eminently logical) distinction between coriander and cilantro?

What's the logic? Do you have a handy way of remembering which is which?

In US culinary use, "cilantro" is always the leafy herb, whereas "coriander" is always reserved for the seeds, a spice. The whole plant may be called coriander in the garden, if you like, but not in the kitchen. No, sir.

As to the logic, part of the reason for the distinction lies in their very stark differences; in cooking, one cannot use them interchangeably. But I also think a contributing factor is that the herb is a relative latecomer to the greater American kitchen, whereas the spice already had a long-established history under the name "coriander" - indeed, until the advent of the herb, the spice was the only "coriander" we ever knew - and since the two are so vastly different from each other in practical terms, we saw a real need for a distinction in nomenclature. For example, were I to be asked if I like coriander, assuming (as I would) that the spice were meant, I would say yes, but if it turned out instead to be the herb, I would gag. I'm one of those for whom cilantro tastes like soap. So I find the terminological distinction very important, if for no other reason than not to subject the guests to a bad experience over a confusion. If we hadn't called it "cilantro", then it probably would have been called "Chinese parsley", but our first broad exposure to it came mainly from Mexican and other Hispanic cookery, so that probably explains the word choice.

In the name of all that is holy, if you can't find it in your heart to adopt "cilantro", then at least distinguish them in the kitchen as "leaf/herb coriander" and "seed/spice coriander". Sooner or later, it will truly matter.

Nanohedron wrote:... then at least distinguish them in the kitchen as "leaf/herb coriander" and "seed/spice coriander". Sooner or later, it will truly matter.

In my experience we do. Recipes say leaves or seeds. Or say chopped, or ground..

Well fancy that. I just looked it up. I didn't know that not everyone thought the herb tasted like soap (not quite the word I would use, but I clearly fall in that slice of the population). I thought it was an acquired taste that I hadn't acquired but didn't want to make a fuss about. Maybe I will start picking it out of the salad. I had some salsa with it recently that was quite nice in a quirky sort of way, maybe some of my friends were missing out on a sensory experience.

david_h wrote:

Nanohedron wrote:... then at least distinguish them in the kitchen as "leaf/herb coriander" and "seed/spice coriander". Sooner or later, it will truly matter.

In my experience we do. Recipes say leaves or seeds. Or say chopped, or ground..

That's a relief. Perhaps the Anglosphere is a safer place after all.

...although I must admit that "chopped" or "ground" isn't specific enough for my liking; one can chop up coriander seeds (I confess I wouldn't know why), and chimichurri sauce definitely has the ground herb in it. So, c'mon. Enough with the assumptions, UK.

david_h wrote:Well fancy that. I just looked it up. I didn't know that not everyone thought the herb tasted like soap (not quite the word I would use, but I clearly fall in that slice of the population). I thought it was an acquired taste that I hadn't acquired but didn't want to make a fuss about. Maybe I will start picking it out of the salad. I had some salsa with it recently that was quite nice in a quirky sort of way, maybe some of my friends were missing out on a sensory experience.

I've sort of gotten used to it out of endurance due to exposure, but I'm much happier without it. To date there has been only one time - one - where I actually liked it, and that was in a very sophisticated (there's that word again!) Thai dish; there, instead of soap, I tasted something akin to a cool breeze. It was brilliant, and to this day I wonder what made the difference.

There's some serious confusion going on here. Apart from anything else, I think david_h must have grown up in very different circles from the ones I grew up in.

Two things:

1) Paprika.

Nanohedron wrote:But in point of fact, "paprika" - however it's pronounced - to us means first of all the dried powder; if we use the same word for fresh peppers, it's in specific reference only to that varietal which gives us the kitchen spice of the same name.

Yes. Absolutely. That's the only experience I have. I hadn't even noticed david_h's mention of another possible use until you brought it up, Nano. However, there is a problem with your next sentence:

Nanohedron wrote:Most of the time if we're not being specific, be they fresh or dried, we're just going to say "peppers".

In my experience, we would never say "peppers" for anything other than sweet peppers. If we mean the hot kind, then we would say either "chillis" or "chilli peppers", never just "peppers".

2) Cilantro

Nanohedron wrote:Speaking of which: When are you going to finally capitulate to the culinary (and eminently logical) distinction between coriander and cilantro?

david_h wrote:In my experience we do. Recipes say leaves or seeds. Or say chopped, or ground..

In my experience, people - and recipes - say coriander, and the meaning is perfectly clear. I have never seen the need to distinguish coriander (meaning seeds) from coriander (meaning leaves).


By the way, o-REG-a-no is an abomination. It's pronounced orrig-AH-no.

Meanwhile, the one, staying in this culinary area, that really bugs me is the American pronunciation of "Errbs". I just don't get it. It's linguistically completely incorrect, being neither French nor English. It's pronounced "herbs", i.e. with an "h" on the beginning.

Mind you - straying from the culinary - Americans are also responsible for the now pervasive mispronunciation of lingerie as "lonzh-er-ay" which is appalling. It should properly - obviously - be "lanzh-er-ee".

benhall.1 wrote:

Nanohedron wrote:Most of the time if we're not being specific, be they fresh or dried, we're just going to say "peppers".

In my experience, we would never say "peppers" for anything other than sweet peppers. If we mean the hot kind, then we would say either "chillis" or "chilli peppers", never just "peppers".

Yes, I knew a Scot who made the same distinctions. The US tendency doesn't. We start vague as hell, and proceed from there. In fact, we might be a bit just the opposite: If someone said they were going to throw some peppers in a stew, my first assumption would be chilis. I think we're more likely to specify bell peppers as such (which is how I normally say "sweet peppers") and less so when "peppers" means chilis. TBH, I seldom if ever use the word "chilis"; I might say "hot peppers", but it's more likely going to be just "peppers". Likewise, if I put red bell peppers in something I cooked and was enumerating the ingredients to someone, I would definitely say "red bell peppers", not just "peppers". Even "red peppers" is too ambiguous, to me. The one exception would be "green peppers": where I live, it invariably means green bell peppers.

benhall.1 wrote:In my experience, people - and recipes - say coriander, and the meaning is perfectly clear. I have never seen the need to distinguish coriander (meaning seeds) from coriander (meaning leaves).

You know what I think? I think you've either just been fantastically lucky, or you take bizarre to be "exotic".

benhall.1 wrote:By the way, o-REG-a-no is an abomination. It's pronounced orrig-AH-no.

Ah, but it comes to us from the Spanish "orégano" (note the stress accent), so who's doing the abominating, here? Consider yourself pounced upon.

benhall.1 wrote:Meanwhile, the one, staying in this culinary area, that really bugs me is the American pronunciation of "Errbs". I just don't get it. It's linguistically completely incorrect, being neither French nor English.

I'm going to differ with you again. Originally Latin, surely it must come to us from the French.

benhall.1 wrote:It's pronounced "herbs", i.e. with an "h" on the beginning.

Occasionally you hear it that way in the States, but it's definitely a minority (numbers, not ethnicity) pronunciation. I've generally assumed it to be more of an East Coast phenomenon, but I don't know how much merit the assumption has. When I was a child, I simply attributed it to poor education!

But now I know that education is not really a determining factor in these things: In Louisiana I encountered a plantation's historical guide who was very highly educated indeed, but still she pronounced "ask" as "axe". Jarring as I found the contrast, that's a regionalism, pure and simple.

benhall.1 wrote:Mind you - straying from the culinary - Americans are also responsible for the now pervasive mispronunciation of lingerie as "lonzh-er-ay" which is appalling. It should properly - obviously - be "lanzh-er-ee".

I agree it's appalling. And if that weren't bad enough, for "chaise longue" we say "chase lounge" (well, I don't; I just say "fainting couch" ).

Ah, well. At least we all pronounce "pilot" alike. Or so I hope. Please tell me no one pronounces it "pillut".

Nanohedron wrote:

Tunborough wrote:... which reminds me about o-REG-a-no.

Troll you are, to leave us hanging like that. And so you go first: How do you pronounce it?

I pronounce it properly, of course: o-REG-a-no.

benhall.1 wrote:By the way, o-REG-a-no is an abomination. It's pronounced orrig-AH-no.

I rest my case.

Nanohedron wrote:Ah, but it comes to us from the Spanish "orégano" (note the stress accent), so who's doing the abominating, here?

The North American pronunciation may have also been reinforced by hearing the word from Italian grocers or restaurateurs.

What is an abomination is FOY-err for that part of a house or church properly called the FO-yay.

Tunborough wrote:What is an abomination is FOY-err for that part of a house or church properly called the FO-yay.

I do say "FOY-err". I don't recall hearing "FO-yay", but on occasion you do hear "fwa-YAY". In these parts it comes off as a bit twee, but what the heck.

Nanohedron wrote:I don't recall hearing "FO-yay", but on occasion you do hear "fwa-YAY".

FO-yay is the UK and Canadian pronunciation (at least), https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/foyer#Pronunciation, sufficiently ingrained that I cringe when I hear FOY-err. Please don't say it around me.

fwa-yay would come from the French.

Hmmm. Yet another difference, one that seems to have been glossed over: Chili vs. chilli. Granted the English/European preference for chilli has an underlying resonance of a play on words (chilly-chilly) out here in the West, pardner, where we rub elbows with a sizable hispanic population (many of Nahuatl descent) it is exclusively chili.

Bob

Nanohedron wrote: if we use the same word for fresh peppers, it's in specific reference only to that varietal which gives us the kitchen spice of the same name.

I think that may be the usage I have come across. I hadn't heard it until a few years ago, possibly when we started getting pointy, 'chilli-shaped', sweet peppers. I wonder if they come from eastern Europe with the name 'paprika' attached.

Just a passing thought, re oregano. Apparently, the older English word was origanum, straight from the Latin, which would explain why, in the UK, we retain the pronunciation associated with that word rather than the newer, Spanish word. The Spanish word, oregano, isn't even in my full Oxford English Dictionary! Mind you, it is one that I bought about thirty years ago or so, so it's probably an older edition.

benhall.1 wrote:...my full Oxford English Dictionary!

The 20 volume one ?