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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:24 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Just for money? The chance of getting advertising revenue back from it 'going viral'? Really? I mean, it just seems so pointless to me ...


Youtube star PewDiePie has reportedly made $114 million in youtube advertising revenue. This has allowed him to (reportedly) also leverage that popularity in $42 million in merchandising.

Those kinds of numbers can be seductive to someone trying to break into internet stardom and tempt them to cheat.

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Wanderer wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
Just for money? The chance of getting advertising revenue back from it 'going viral'? Really? I mean, it just seems so pointless to me ...


Youtube star PewDiePie has reportedly made $114 million in youtube advertising revenue. This has allowed him to (reportedly) also leverage that popularity in $42 million in merchandising.

Those kinds of numbers can be seductive to someone trying to break into internet stardom and tempt them to cheat.

Yes, I suppose so. I suppose if you were going to pay to get the thing going, then all you're really interested in is the money, not the music, or whatever else you're doing. I dunno. Maybe it's sensible on some level ...

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:01 am 
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OK. So I've just looked at an online article that describes buying YouTube views:

https://buyviewsreview.com/top-10-myths ... ube-views/

I now have another question (which I am partially answering for myself). Let's make this personal: if I were to buy YouTube views, I mean, firstly, I think it would be obvious that I had done so, but what would you guys - anyone in trad, really - think of me doing that? Here's my partial answer for myself: to me, it feels wrong. Somehow it does feel like cheating; it almost feels like paying someone to do one's exam for one, in order to enhance one's CV. It feels desperate. So it would really bother me.

What would others think of me if I did that?

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:10 am 
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For some people, your concerns (which are similar to mine) do not matter one bit. They don't even imagine why it should. The mindset is different. Nothing feels "wrong". Take this guy, for example: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09 ... ake-money/


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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:25 am 
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Tor wrote:
For some people, your concerns (which are similar to mine) do not matter one bit. They don't even imagine why it should. The mindset is different. Nothing feels "wrong". Take this guy, for example: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09 ... ake-money/

Yes. That, to me, is an example of a supposed human at one end of a moral spectrum. Reading about him (again) makes me want to hurriedly edge away, and pushes me further in the opposite direction on the moral spectrum. To that extent, that sort of vile behaviour does have one positive effect: it makes decent people want to be more decent.

But are you saying that buying views is immoral? I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in feeling that it feels wrong ... but is it immoral? (Which, to me, is a different level.)

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:40 am 
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No, I don't think I would go as far as calling it immoral. It could, or maybe should, be against youtube's terms (maybe it is, for all I know). So, not really immoral, but not the way I would play the game either.


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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:43 am 
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Tor wrote:
No, I don't think I would go as far as calling it immoral. It could, or maybe should, be against youtube's terms (maybe it is, for all I know). So, not really immoral, but not the way I would play the game either.

Yep. I think that's about where I'm coming from, too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:34 am 
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I'd guess that most people drawn to traditional music aren't drawn to it because of the big money. I mean I know I'm interested in part because it's a community of people who like it for itself rather than because it's sexy or trendy or rooted in dimwit celebrity culture.

Youtube was full of people posting stuff they loved--crafts they learned how to do, songs they played, etc etc. It still is, but if you're smart and lucky you can "monetize" the milk of human kindness. I maintained a blog for a while, and enjoyed it, but I stopped because there was always a temptation to hype it to try to get more clicks and looks. "Google analytics" let me know how many visitors I'd had, how long they stayed, where they came from nationally and internationally, how long they stayed etc. It's like a beast you have to keep feeding. You tube "stars" wake up every morning and check their analytics to make sure they aren't slipping or figure out how to get more eyeballs, always more eyeballs. It seems like an awful way to live to me, but probably the money is soothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Tor wrote:
For some people, your concerns (which are similar to mine) do not matter one bit. They don't even imagine why it should. The mindset is different. Nothing feels "wrong". Take this guy, for example: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09 ... ake-money/

This raises for me the the question of motivations.

Putting aside for the moment any assessments of the above guy's character or pathological condition (tempting, given his bid to profit by overpricing meds so excessively that Martin Shkreli would approve), his justification of responsibility to the board members has a certain - if distasteful and in the end probably specious - merit. But I think the argument of responsibility (here he calls it a "moral responsibility") to the board falls through when medications are priced beyond the reach of the average person; how well is the board going to profit if few can buy the meds? I see a failure of logic in that argument when you invoke your supposed responsibilities, 'moral' or not. I would further point out that, by definition, the the guy's responsibility to the board is actually an ethical one, but certainly not a matter of morality, so here he is misusing the word 'moral'. One assumes he knows the difference.

The decision to unbendingly favor one's putative "moral responsibility" to the board over moral responsibility to human need is certainly a wrong one. No question.

But let's say I had a message to the world that I thought was so important and urgent that I knew that the only way to get it out there in timely fashion was by social media, and that the best way to do that was to invest the money it takes to flood the readership. Let's also say that I monetized this with ads so that I could recoup my losses, keep enough to support me in furthering the message, and the rest goes to charitable directions. If I honestly believe in my message, here I think the question of morals/ethics, and even taste for that matter, becomes very dim. IOW, the ends arguably justify the means; it is the message itself that is up to question. If the message is in fact a detestably wrongful one, the question of ethics and morals taints everything the message touches.

Buying views simply for the sake of pop culture fame is another matter, and I honestly don't know what I think about it. Not my sort of gig, anyway.

Buying views in the name of monetizing for its own sake, so long as you're dead honest about it, is at best simply the cost of doing business. It may be distasteful, but unethical or even immoral? So long as it harms no one else, I'm not so sure. I do think the harm to oneself is absolutely worth weighing, however. PB+J has already hinted at some of the possibilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
. I would further point out that the the guy's responsibility to the board is actually an ethical one,
I may not be following this properly but isn't that a contractual reponsibility rather than an ethical one? He is doing the the job he is paid to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:27 pm 
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david_h wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
. I would further point out that the the guy's responsibility to the board is actually an ethical one,
I may not be following this properly but isn't that a contractual reponsibility rather than an ethical one? He is doing the the job he is paid to do.

Of course it was from the standpoint of values that I spoke of 'ethical' as opposed to 'moral', but it's still a good question, because I had to stop and think about it. :)

This is as I understand it: If you have a contractual responsibility, the ethics are in how, or if, you carry it out. Morals drive your ethical decisions, and those decisions lead to actions that may also be filed under 'ethics'. In short, morals are the ground, and ethics are in the doing. So to me, if you are contractually bound, fulfilling that contract is an ethical matter, for good or ill. If you're doing what you're paid to do, that's an ethical decision. If you're not doing what you're paid to do, that's also an ethical decision. It is in this spirit that I spoke of an ethical responsibility; those who draw up the contract would certainly see fulfilling it as an ethical matter, because once you sign, you are committed right there on paper to the terms agreed. So in contractual matters, I see ethical responsibility as roughly synonymous to contractual responsibility. Some might see it as a bit of a stretch - some might even argue that the words 'ethical' and 'responsibility' don't logically go together - but here it's far closer to the truth than 'moral'.

Lest some might think I advocate doing the wrong thing just on the basis of a contract, note that in using the word 'ethical' here, I am not using it in contrast to 'unethical', but just in a general, neutral sense that includes the unethical.

If the guy had instead said he had a contractual responsibility to the board, I still wouldn't respect him, but at least I could take him seriously as a straight talker. If he had cited an ethical responsibility to the board, I could grudgingly accept that, because strictly on its own terms, it implies the contract; the moral weight of his ethics is another matter. But a moral responsibility? How in thrall to a board could you be? With that one word he holds them up as if they were gods - but is anybody fooled?

Clear as mud? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:13 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
... In short, morals are the ground, and ethics are in the doing... ... Clear as mud? :)

Clear if you use your short form distinction. I was taking a simple dictionary (COED) definition of ethics. "the moral principles governing or influencing conduct" ..
I should probably have said 'contractual obligation' rather than 'contractual responsibility'. I guess the skipper of a slave ship might take the same view as the guy in the article.


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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:36 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
This is as I understand it: If you have a contractual responsibility, the ethics are in how, or if, you carry it out. Morals drive your ethical decisions, and those decisions lead to actions that may also be filed under 'ethics'. In short, morals are the ground, and ethics are in the doing. So to me, if you are contractually bound, fulfilling that contract is an ethical matter, for good or ill.


Interesting analysis. I have always struggled to diferentiate between ethcs and morals, but that helps, maybe.

It does complicate matters though. If I took a contract to kill, the taking the contract would be amoral and therefore unethical? But fulfilling the contract would be ethical, though immoral? Failing to fulfil the contract would be moral but unethical?

Or, as I begin to suspect, morals are relative. I have a moral duty to fulfil the contract and a moral duty not to kill. Therefore whatever I do (once I have accepted the contract) is both moral and immoral. Therefore both ethical and unethical.
Very confusing. A good reason in itself not to take such a contract.

Which has an influence on the way I look at the chap selling pharaceuticals. Was his contract (to sell pharmaceuticals) initially immoral? If not when did it become so - at some arbitrarily decided price point?

EDIT: I found this: https://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethics_vs_Morals

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:30 pm 
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DrPhill wrote:
It does complicate matters though. If I took a contract to kill, the taking the contract would be amoral and therefore unethical? But fulfilling the contract would be ethical, though immoral? Failing to fulfil the contract would be moral but unethical?

From your link:

Quote:
A person strictly following Ethical Principles may not have any Morals at all. Likewise, one could violate Ethical Principles within a given system of rules in order to maintain Moral integrity. A Moral Person although perhaps bound by a higher covenant, may choose to follow a code of ethics as it would apply to a system. "Make it fit"

This is basically what I was driving at.

I'm not entirely satisfied with the link's definition of ethics as being sourced from outside oneself; after all, I learned my morals from the influence of others, didn't I? And my ethical principles might be entirely the result of drawing my own conclusions, while they may be at variance from the norm. It's why I tend to define ethics as being expressed in what you do, and morals as the reason why you do them. It's not that I'm invested in being 'right' about it; I don't think anyone can be. It's simply that this model has so far worked very well for me, because I find a certain practicality to it. Another might not be so satisfied with my analysis.

The very fact that the link's definition and mine don't entirely mesh tells us that defining these things enters into the realm of philosophy, and there's always room for debate there, and with no relief in sight; we're still debating the nature of morals and ethics to this day. But that's a good thing, I think.

I would agree that when we start delving into what these things really are, we find ourselves faced more and more with how subjective the whole matter really is. For example, we use terms like 'immoral' and 'unethical' with hardly a thought, but to a sociopath they would have no concrete meaning in themselves. If I were to lie, cheat, or even commit violence to save a life or turn someone away from doing evil, to what degree are my deeds acceptable? The only answer, I think, is that it depends on who's talking. When I call something unethical or immoral, what I'm really doing is comparing it to my own standards. Now these standards might be part of a majority, but a price gouger could honestly believe what he's doing is right and justifiable. I don't see it, but hurling labels doesn't get the job done. All I can do is try and persuade.

The law, however, is based on majority consensus (or at least in principle). And this consensus is mutable; recall how women were once legally chattel, and this was thought right. But now the idea is anathema in the West, and this attitude is spreading elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Jealous?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
The very fact that the link's definition and mine don't entirely mesh tells us that defining these things enters into the realm of philosophy, and there's always room for debate there, and with no relief in sight; we're still debating the nature of morals and ethics to this day. But that's a good thing, I think.

Yes, and yes. When I was young and naive I believed in the absolutes. Now that I am a cynical old git I find more and more words that sound good but seem to be used to close off debate rather than start it. Good (for whom), evil (to whom), justice (for whom), freedom (from what?, to do what?), democracy (what kind?), truth? Perhaps we agree here:
Nanohedron wrote:
...... when we start delving into what these things really are, we find ourselves faced more and more with how subjective the whole matter really is.


Nanohedron wrote:
When I call something unethical or immoral, what I'm really doing is comparing it to my own standards. ........ but hurling labels doesn't get the job done. All I can do is try and persuade.

And I agree here. My behaviour is informed by my beliefs. (My beliefs are not perfectly formed, and my ability to live by them is sometimes lacking.) For example, I do not steal because I would not want to be stolen from. 'Do as you would be done by' - not a new concept, and amost certainly based upon the beliefs of the culture I grew up in. But thses are not absolute. I think I would be able to live with breaking my principles to save a life, for example. The labels 'ethical' and 'moral' do not seem to have a role in my thought processes, perhaps because they are abstract and I think more in concrete forms.

Thanks to this thread for getting me thinking of these things. Sorry to Ben for derailing his thread......

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