"Despite them"?

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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Nanohedron »

Peter Duggan wrote:Scottish fiddler Bruce MacGregor plays his own composition, the air "The Nameless Clan"...
Do you know, I do believe that's the one!
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Spectacular bit of lucky sleuthing, even if you'd stuck it on a plate:
Nanohedron wrote:So I was surfing YouTube for tunes
Nanohedron wrote:Well, they were Scottish tunes, FWIW...
Nanohedron wrote:one of the players was a MacGregor, too
+ 'The Nameless Clan' (his own composition) for the royal flush... MacGregors despite them!

:party:

(PS Spot Dougie MacLean on guitar?)
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Nanohedron »

Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:one of the players was a MacGregor, too
+ 'The Nameless Clan' (his own composition) for the royal flush... MacGregors despite them!
I wish my memory were better, but I do know that the MacGregor I mention above was from a different vid, though. I couldn't tell you if it was the same fellow; in any case, it was a different tune performed by three/four people on stage. In the comments for that one, the name MacGregor was mentioned, followed immediately by "despite them". So there, at least, I have context, if only now after the fact. One might be tempted to think it was an uncharitable comment about the other musicians, which I wondered. However, in The Nameless Clan vid we see the comment is, "Beautiful... despite them. ;c)". This certainly had me thinking I was seeing a jab, because of a lack of discernible context and my ignorance of the code involved.

Followed as it is with the winky emoticon, it does lead me to believe that in this case it still could indeed be good-natured ribbing - not unlike when someone says of a highly skilled musician, "S/he can play a bit...", but here, instead, taking advantage of the very fitting wording of a bit of clan lore to get the job done. Or - maybe it's just bad writing. :wink:

That said, all in all I think we've cleared this up! Many thanks. :)
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by AaronFW »

Nanohedron wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:one of the players was a MacGregor, too
Followed as it is with the winky emoticon, it does lead me to believe that in this case it still could indeed be good-natured ribbing - not unlike when someone says of a highly skilled musician, "S/he can play a bit...", but here, instead, taking advantage of the very fitting wording of a bit of clan lore to get the job done. Or - maybe it's just bad writing. :wink:

That said, all in all I think we've cleared this up! Many thanks. :)
I think the “despite them” in the “beautiful” comment isn’t modifying “beautiful”. I think it is functionally two statements: first, a remark that they perceived the piece as beautiful and then a nod or joke regarding the clan lore. I say that because I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.” Which is why you might have seen it elsewhere in other comments: it can be used to show that someone is in the know culturally or it can be a wider statement about the clan (in the event that someone is stating it seriously.) It is kinda like an cultural inside joke... but doesn’t have to be a joke in all cases but I say “inside joke” because that is at least a familiar concept. Maybe I should say cultural inside reference? Perhaps similar to if one of us made a remark that only someone from our hometown would understand.
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Nanohedron »

Well, I only postulated the possibility of it modifying the first word; I didn't bank on it. The cultural inside-reference, once you know it, remains either way.
AaronFW wrote:I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.”
Which basically follows the gist of my initial question, and my wondering if the phrase was intended as a modifier. So I'm not sure which side of the fence you're really on, here. Not that there needs to be a fence.

Because of your statement above, I find myself doubting that you read Duggan's source material as to how the name MacGregor and the words "despite them" are inexorably linked. There's your inside reference, and it's pretty clear, once you know it. Thus armed, it can be used as a modifier outside of its specific cultural context and yet still remain within it - it would work, if the writer's given to subtlety - but as I said, maybe it's just bad writing. Bad writing is bad because it's unclear. I have no doubt that the writer had no investment whatsoever in being understood by those not in the know, but the downside to that is that the uninformed (like myself, at the time) come away thinking the writer's just being uncharitable.

IOW, in a case like this where a cultural reference is very "inside" indeed, misunderstandings on the part of the casual observer are bound to happen.
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Peter Duggan »

AaronFW wrote:I say that because I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.”
No. You might perceive that, but there's no doubt whatsoever that 'them' refers to third parties... King James, the Campbells, other oppressors of the 'Nameless Clan'...
Nanohedron wrote:I have no doubt that the writer had no investment whatsoever in being understood by those not in the know
And why would he? Such a pithy remark/joke can only be weakened or defused through lengthening to include explanation.
but the downside to that is that the uninformed (like myself, at the time) go away thinking the writer's just being uncharitable.
For sure. But I think the logical choice is between keeping the comment terse and knowing (yeah, the smiley!) or not making it at all.
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Nanohedron »

Peter Duggan wrote:For sure. But I think the logical choice is between keeping the comment terse and knowing (yeah, the smiley!) or not making it at all.
Agreed. You have to draw the line somewhere. I have to say, though, that the smiley - it's a wink, remember - also made me suspect the phrase might have been used both as a cheer AND as a ribbing; it's what I would do, after all. "Despite them" is just too tasty not to turn it on its ear and use that way, too. :twisted:

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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by benhall.1 »

I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Nanohedron »

benhall.1 wrote:I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:
What's your point of confusion, Ben?
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Peter Duggan »

What it's doing on other videos seen by Nano, I've no idea. But here it's a knowing nod to the name of the tune, 'The Nameless Clan', which refers in turn to the past proscription of the MacGregor name and the MacGregors remaining 'MacGregors despite them' (their enemies/oppressors).
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Nanohedron »

Peter Duggan wrote:What it's doing on other videos seen by Nano, I've no idea.
I'm now of the opinion that it's been a MacGregor reference every time. :)
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Could get limp/tiresome if indiscriminately applied to anything involving a MacGregor when this instance packs its punch as much or more through the tune name as composer/performer!
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by AaronFW »

Peter Duggan wrote:
AaronFW wrote:I say that because I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.”
No. You might perceive that, but there's no doubt whatsoever that 'them' refers to third parties... King James, the Campbells, other oppressors of the 'Nameless Clan'...
/quote]
Oh, thank you, that makes since.
benhall.1 wrote:I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:
I had also been confused for a while. Basically there was a clan, the MacGregors, that were oppressed but lived on despite persecution so there became a saying “MacGregors [live on], despite them [the oppressors]”. Nano had seen the “despite them” but was previously unaware of the clan lore about the MacGregors.
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by benhall.1 »

Peter Duggan wrote:What it's doing on other videos seen by Nano, I've no idea. But here it's a knowing nod to the name of the tune, 'The Nameless Clan', which refers in turn to the past proscription of the MacGregor name and the MacGregors remaining 'MacGregors despite them' (their enemies/oppressors).
I'm sorry if you had already explained that, Peter, but that time, at least, I think I finally got it. Very clear. And, for me, every word of that is necessary for my understanding, and not one word more. :)
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Re: "Despite them"?

Post by benhall.1 »

Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:
What's your point of confusion, Ben?
Everything. But, as you can see, I think Peter's now nailed it for me. :thumbsup:
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