It is currently Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:43 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:52 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 33402
Location: Minneapolis
Peter Duggan wrote:
Scottish fiddler Bruce MacGregor plays his own composition, the air "The Nameless Clan"...

Do you know, I do believe that's the one!

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2721
Location: Kinlochleven
Spectacular bit of lucky sleuthing, even if you'd stuck it on a plate:

Nanohedron wrote:
So I was surfing YouTube for tunes

Nanohedron wrote:
Well, they were Scottish tunes, FWIW...

Nanohedron wrote:
one of the players was a MacGregor, too

+ 'The Nameless Clan' (his own composition) for the royal flush... MacGregors despite them!

:party:

(PS Spot Dougie MacLean on guitar?)

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:37 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 33402
Location: Minneapolis
Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
one of the players was a MacGregor, too

+ 'The Nameless Clan' (his own composition) for the royal flush... MacGregors despite them!

I wish my memory were better, but I do know that the MacGregor I mention above was from a different vid, though. I couldn't tell you if it was the same fellow; in any case, it was a different tune performed by three/four people on stage. In the comments for that one, the name MacGregor was mentioned, followed immediately by "despite them". So there, at least, I have context, if only now after the fact. One might be tempted to think it was an uncharitable comment about the other musicians, which I wondered. However, in The Nameless Clan vid we see the comment is, "Beautiful... despite them. ;c)". This certainly had me thinking I was seeing a jab, because of a lack of discernible context and my ignorance of the code involved.

Followed as it is with the winky emoticon, it does lead me to believe that in this case it still could indeed be good-natured ribbing - not unlike when someone says of a highly skilled musician, "S/he can play a bit...", but here, instead, taking advantage of the very fitting wording of a bit of clan lore to get the job done. Or - maybe it's just bad writing. :wink:

That said, all in all I think we've cleared this up! Many thanks. :)

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:49 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Wooster, Ohio
Nanohedron wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
one of the players was a MacGregor, too


Followed as it is with the winky emoticon, it does lead me to believe that in this case it still could indeed be good-natured ribbing - not unlike when someone says of a highly skilled musician, "S/he can play a bit...", but here, instead, taking advantage of the very fitting wording of a bit of clan lore to get the job done. Or - maybe it's just bad writing. :wink:

That said, all in all I think we've cleared this up! Many thanks. :)


I think the “despite them” in the “beautiful” comment isn’t modifying “beautiful”. I think it is functionally two statements: first, a remark that they perceived the piece as beautiful and then a nod or joke regarding the clan lore. I say that because I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.” Which is why you might have seen it elsewhere in other comments: it can be used to show that someone is in the know culturally or it can be a wider statement about the clan (in the event that someone is stating it seriously.) It is kinda like an cultural inside joke... but doesn’t have to be a joke in all cases but I say “inside joke” because that is at least a familiar concept. Maybe I should say cultural inside reference? Perhaps similar to if one of us made a remark that only someone from our hometown would understand.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:24 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 33402
Location: Minneapolis
Well, I only postulated the possibility of it modifying the first word; I didn't bank on it. The cultural inside-reference, once you know it, remains either way.

AaronFW wrote:
I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.”

Which basically follows the gist of my initial question, and my wondering if the phrase was intended as a modifier. So I'm not sure which side of the fence you're really on, here. Not that there needs to be a fence.

Because of your statement above, I find myself doubting that you read Duggan's source material as to how the name MacGregor and the words "despite them" are inexorably linked. There's your inside reference, and it's pretty clear, once you know it. Thus armed, it can be used as a modifier outside of its specific cultural context and yet still remain within it - it would work, if the writer's given to subtlety - but as I said, maybe it's just bad writing. Bad writing is bad because it's unclear. I have no doubt that the writer had no investment whatsoever in being understood by those not in the know, but the downside to that is that the uninformed (like myself, at the time) come away thinking the writer's just being uncharitable.

IOW, in a case like this where a cultural reference is very "inside" indeed, misunderstandings on the part of the casual observer are bound to happen.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2721
Location: Kinlochleven
AaronFW wrote:
I say that because I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.”

No. You might perceive that, but there's no doubt whatsoever that 'them' refers to third parties... King James, the Campbells, other oppressors of the 'Nameless Clan'...

Nanohedron wrote:
I have no doubt that the writer had no investment whatsoever in being understood by those not in the know

And why would he? Such a pithy remark/joke can only be weakened or defused through lengthening to include explanation.

Quote:
but the downside to that is that the uninformed (like myself, at the time) go away thinking the writer's just being uncharitable.

For sure. But I think the logical choice is between keeping the comment terse and knowing (yeah, the smiley!) or not making it at all.

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:16 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 33402
Location: Minneapolis
Peter Duggan wrote:
For sure. But I think the logical choice is between keeping the comment terse and knowing (yeah, the smiley!) or not making it at all.

Agreed. You have to draw the line somewhere. I have to say, though, that the smiley - it's a wink, remember - also made me suspect the phrase might have been used both as a cheer AND as a ribbing; it's what I would do, after all. "Despite them" is just too tasty not to turn it on its ear and use that way, too. :twisted:

Always grateful for new knowledge. :)

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:39 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 11746
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:41 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 33402
Location: Minneapolis
benhall.1 wrote:
I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:

What's your point of confusion, Ben?

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2721
Location: Kinlochleven
What it's doing on other videos seen by Nano, I've no idea. But here it's a knowing nod to the name of the tune, 'The Nameless Clan', which refers in turn to the past proscription of the MacGregor name and the MacGregors remaining 'MacGregors despite them' (their enemies/oppressors).

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:53 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 33402
Location: Minneapolis
Peter Duggan wrote:
What it's doing on other videos seen by Nano, I've no idea.

I'm now of the opinion that it's been a MacGregor reference every time. :)

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2721
Location: Kinlochleven
Could get limp/tiresome if indiscriminately applied to anything involving a MacGregor when this instance packs its punch as much or more through the tune name as composer/performer!

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:49 pm
Posts: 367
Location: Wooster, Ohio
Peter Duggan wrote:
AaronFW wrote:
I say that because I perceive the “despite them” to be somewhat a short hand of “despite who they are, i.e. that they are cursed with misfortune.”

No. You might perceive that, but there's no doubt whatsoever that 'them' refers to third parties... King James, the Campbells, other oppressors of the 'Nameless Clan'...
/quote]

Oh, thank you, that makes since.

benhall.1 wrote:
I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:


I had also been confused for a while. Basically there was a clan, the MacGregors, that were oppressed but lived on despite persecution so there became a saying “MacGregors [live on], despite them [the oppressors]”. Nano had seen the “despite them” but was previously unaware of the clan lore about the MacGregors.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:02 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 11746
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Peter Duggan wrote:
What it's doing on other videos seen by Nano, I've no idea. But here it's a knowing nod to the name of the tune, 'The Nameless Clan', which refers in turn to the past proscription of the MacGregor name and the MacGregors remaining 'MacGregors despite them' (their enemies/oppressors).

I'm sorry if you had already explained that, Peter, but that time, at least, I think I finally got it. Very clear. And, for me, every word of that is necessary for my understanding, and not one word more. :)

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: "Despite them"?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:03 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 11746
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
I'm afraid I still don't get it. And I've been trying to pay attention, honest! :puppyeyes:

What's your point of confusion, Ben?

Everything. But, as you can see, I think Peter's now nailed it for me. :thumbsup:

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.095s | 15 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)