Quick, somebody start a fight!

[kkrell]

Rebuttal:
http://www.saveacat.org/cats-birds-and-predation.html

The fact that the URL is "save a cat" might show this to be a fairly partisan source, no? In any case, this is pretty much a non-denial denial. In fact, the link doesn't deny that feral cats kill wildlife at all. It's hard to tell what they're trying to claim; the piece just talks in circles and wails "not enough is known!" every paragraph or so. It does concede that all the studies it alludes to conclude that feral cats kill a lot of birds, but claims that all these studies are flawed, without ever saying why, let alone providing evidence of that contention.

If that's what you already want to believe, I suppose that's sufficient permission to go on believing it, but otherwise that link doesn't really say anything.

I don't think there ARE any NON-partisan sources, when it comes to cats. If it's not at that link, there is certainly discussion that many other factors result in bird deaths, and not from predation.

My position, though, is that a MANAGED colony (spay/neuter/feed/medicate) is an improvement on cats being allowed to breed endlessly and to suffer.

[Nanohedron]

Just let me say that I'm not the only one to apply it to the pettier of squabbles

What's a "pettier" - a French cat owner?

Hmm. Or it might might mean someone who is about to emit, is emitting, or has emitted gas.

Domestic cats are not known for sweeping up the evidence. And that is because frankly, they can't be arsed.

They're likely hunting farther afield.

Not necessarily as a matter of habit. It is safe to generalize that cats are opportunists, so if they don't have to roam for prey, why do it? Each will have their own reasons. Lester of the Uncanny Mind roamed, but it was for pure fun and adventure, and in particular to try to get into people's homes to satisfy his massive curiosity and have a visit, and the daily phone calls and texts letting me know where he was back that up. If he came across prey on his travels, that was a bonus, but honestly I have reason to believe that hunting wasn't his primary purpose in roaming. I mostly saw him do his serious hunting on his own patch - even with a cat around there was no shortage of wildlife - but being hyper-intelligent he got bored easily, so the easy-to-catch stuff soon fell off the to-do list. In the end his main thing was not the actual kill, but the challenge - he always had to beat the house - and his main goal became that hardest-to-catch (and most dangerous!) of urban quarry: squirrels. He was obsessed with them more than any other. For him it was like the Maasai warrior who'd go out alone to bag a lion, naked, with no shield and only a spear, the only purpose being to test his skills and mettle against something that could seriously put the hurt on him. After months and months he eventually caught only one that I know of, and that got him mauled big time. Knowing Lester, had he prevailed he would have brought the squirrel home to show me his triumph, so I know the squirrel came out on top and got away. But defeats never stopped Lester; he learned strategy by them. Had he lived longer, I fully believe he would have eventually gotten a decent handle on squirrel-hunting, because he had the drive, and the smarts, to work it out. So for him it wasn't about mere killing, but mastery. He believed he was the best, and he was always out to prove it.

[Dan A.]

Lester of the Uncanny Mind roamed, but it was for pure fun and adventure...

Every cat I've kept as a pet in the past 20 years or so has been indoors-only. Some would seek to go on an adventure every time I opened the door, while one would stay inside even if I left the door open. They do have their own reasons...sometimes I wish we shared a common language.

And earlier this afternoon, after shoveling the driveway, I spotted no fewer than fifteen birds congregated in my backyard. Seems they're not terribly worried about the cats, but I've no idea why they wanted to perch on wires when the sky was spitting snow!

[s1m0n]

Not necessarily as a matter of habit. It is safe to generalize that cats are opportunists, so if they don't have to roam for prey, why do it? Each will have their own reasons. Lester of the Uncanny Mind roamed, but it was for pure fun and adventure, and in particular to try to get into people's homes to satisfy his massive curiosity and have a visit, and the daily phone calls and texts letting me know where he was back that up. If he came across prey on his travels, that was a bonus, but honestly I have reason to believe that hunting wasn't his primary purpose in roaming. I mostly saw him do his serious hunting on his own patch - even with a cat around there was no shortage of wildlife - but being hyper-intelligent he got bored easily, so the easy-to-catch stuff soon fell off the to-do list. In the end his main thing was not the actual kill, but the challenge - he always had to beat the house - and his main goal became that hardest-to-catch (and most dangerous!) of urban quarry: squirrels. He was obsessed with them more than any other. For him it was like the Maasai warrior who'd go out alone to bag a lion, naked, with no shield and only a spear, the only purpose being to test his skills and mettle against something that could seriously put the hurt on him. After months and months he eventually caught only one that I know of, and that got him mauled big time. Knowing Lester, had he prevailed he would have brought the squirrel home to show me his triumph, so I know the squirrel came out on top and got away. But defeats never stopped Lester; he learned strategy by them. Had he lived longer, I fully believe he would have eventually gotten a decent handle on squirrel-hunting, because he had the drive, and the smarts, to work it out. So for him it wasn't about mere killing, but mastery. He believed he was the best, and he was always out to prove it.

You're anthropomorphising WAY too much. Cat are not nearly that profound. Think less about the philosophy of Maasai manhood-ritual lion hunts and more about instincts and stimuli; that's the level cats operate on.

[Nanohedron]

A possible solution?

She ought to hide her face, all right.

Lester of the Uncanny Mind roamed, but it was for pure fun and adventure...

Every cat I've kept as a pet in the past 20 years or so has been indoors-only. Some would seek to go on an adventure every time I opened the door, while one would stay inside even if I left the door open.

Well, I've covered this before, but I tried to keep Lester indoors. It just didn't work. He was too stubborn and became unhappy and destructive, so not wanting him to be unhappy, I had to let him have his way. Changed his attitude, too; he immediately became loving instead of neurotic. One tries, but insisting on human-centric ideals does not always serve an animal's best interests.

On the topic of hunting, Lester's predecessor Mubu also went outside, but she never hunted because it proved too much work for her liking. She just watched.

They do have their own reasons...sometimes I wish we shared a common language.

It's not so hard, I think. Cats are pretty good at communication; all we have to do is pay attention.

[Nanohedron]

You're anthropomorphising WAY too much. Cat are not nearly that profound. Think less about the philosophy of Maasai manhood-ritual lion hunts and more about instincts and stimuli; that's the level cats operate on.

And I say you never knew Lester. You speak of cats as a set, but I speak of individuals, and individuals they are. He was profound. He was more acutely self-aware than any other I'd had before, I witnessed him calculate things in a heartbeat that other cats might never arrive at, and - you will of course scoff, not that I care - he even showed a capacity for symbolic thinking, which astounded me. Not all cats are mere automatons driven only by their instinctual clockwork alone. Mutations happen, and I think Lester was one such. Among cats his was an exceptional intellect, and no question. When a cat lives for a challenge to the exclusion of what's easy, that's worth calling it for what it is. As I said, he always had to beat the house. It was practically his raison d'être. I'm fully aware of the pitfalls of anthropomorphizing, but I think in his case the Maasai analogy is not at all misguided, not one bit. I knew this cat and how he ticked.

[s1m0n]

Perhaps you could invite Lester to draft a 500 word personal essay on the spiritual nature of squirrel-conquest, and how that can lead to enlightenment and spiritual fulfillment.

[Dan A.]

It's not so hard, I think. Cats are pretty good at communication; all we have to do is pay attention.

My cats are best at communicating right after I wake up...they know feeding time is imminent!

[Nanohedron]

Perhaps you could invite Lester to draft a 500 word personal essay on the spiritual nature of squirrel-conquest, and how that can lead to enlightenment and spiritual fulfillment.

Crude mockery in the face of an honest assessment is so unbecoming. It speaks of having run out of ammo where none is required. You would do better to consider that there are more things in heaven and earth, s1m0n, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. And if your memory were at all of any service to you, you'd recall that Lester is no longer with us. So no essay, I'm afraid.

[s1m0n]

Well, you were just boasting about Lester's degree in communications studies. And that he thinks of his squirrell as a young Maasai warrior thinks of the spirit-quest that culminates in a ceremonial lion hunt. Were you just making it up? Or merely projecting?

[s1m0n]

And if your memory were at all of any service to you, you'd recall that Lester is no longer with us. So no essay, I'm afraid.

See, that's just it. I don't think it's Lester at all; I think it's you projecting your own words and thought into his head. Anthropomorphising, as I warned you earlier.

It's why cat videos like the one you posted are so ubiquitous on the web: we can't help projecting human thoughts and feelings into what we see.

[Nanohedron]

Well, you were just boasting about Lester's degree in communications studies. And that he thinks of his squirrell as a young Maasai warrior thinks of the spirit-quest that culminates in a ceremonial lion hunt. Were you just making it up? Or merely projecting?

Christ. I was boasting of nothing. I was marveling, which is different. How little you must think of the human race, that you would misread me so. Did I speak of "communication studies"? I spoke of native ability, last I checked. And your ignorance of the Maasai lion hunt serves you most poorly in argument. There is no "spirit-quest", so put your crystals away. It is merely to control population, out of revenge for lost livestock, or - as I said before - to prove one's mettle and thereby gain honor. It is this last that I referred to, and proving one's mettle is not at all an unusual stance in any young predator. If you had seen what I saw, you would know, but feel free all the same to make assumptive pronouncements from your comfy remove.

And if your memory were at all of any service to you, you'd recall that Lester is no longer with us. So no essay, I'm afraid.

See, that's just it. I don't think it's Lester at all; I think it's you projecting your own words and thought into his head. Anthropomorphising, as I warned you earlier.

Before I address it, can you tell me how that has anything at all to do with my quote? It doesn't. Please stay on track.

Anyway, you can think whatever you like. I happen to know the difference between behavioral observation and projecting. I know you to have been a dog owner, but have you ever had a cat? If so, did you ever really come to understand it? How about a lifetime of them?

[s1m0n]

I've had 4 cats. Two died; one of old age and the other young, of distemper (it was one of a neighbour's barn cats, and was ill the day I found it & tried to nurse it to health). Two went with exes in the split.

I gave up adopting kittens when I realized that keeping an indoor cat is cruel to the cat and outdoor cats are cruel to the world.

~~

Incidentally, science says that in cities with large urban coyote populations (like Vancouver, for instance) bird populations are almost twice as successful at raising young, because the local house cat population sticks a lot closer to home.

[AaronFW]

They do have their own reasons...sometimes I wish we shared a common language.

It's not so hard, I think. Cats are pretty good at communication; all we have to do is pay attention.

It is my understanding that both cats and dogs have been developing ways to communicate with humans; namely, that wild dog species and cats have very little (if any) vocal communication in their colonies and packs, and that meowing, barking, and other vocal noises have been the solutions cats and dogs have developed to communicate with humans. This is part of our socializing of cats/dogs and their socializing of us.

Which if you consider many canine species, dogs and cats have done very well for themselves in socializing humans to the point that we take care of them, shelter them and feed them. (Meanwhile, a lot of other feline and canine species are endangered.)

[s1m0n]

...wild dog species and cats have very little (if any) vocal communication in their colonies and packs, and that meowing, barking, and other vocal noises have been the solutions cats and dogs have developed to communicate with humans. This is part of our socializing of cats/dogs and their socializing of us.

Domestication of both cats and dogs has resulted in Neoteny, which is the retention of juvenile and adolescent traits into adulthood. Vocalisations are among those traits. Wolf pups are just as noisy as puppies, but adult wolves grow out of barking, although they still use howling for ultra-long range coms. Wolf behaviourists say that wolves have an impressive array of gestures they use for coordinating on the hunt. Most felids aren't pack animals, so they likely do a lot less communicating in general.