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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
Ben makes a strong point that it could have been rendered in some kind of triple time.

Hmmm, sure Ben won't mind me jumping in before him to tell you he does nothing of the sort! :wink:

Do your worst. :pint:

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:28 pm 
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But I already did! (What he said debunks rather than makes a case for either triple or compound time.)

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:33 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
But I already did! (What he said debunks rather than makes a case for either triple or compound time.)

Ah. I thought there might be more. I'm afraid that not being a scholar of theory, much of it was lost on me.

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
'1 a with a 2 a with a' for same into fours (semiquavers in 2/4)

That said, one of my pupils mentioned '1 e & a 2 e & a' (another apparently popular system) when we were recently working at a 16-beat drum rhythm with nifty kick/snare drum displacements, and I can see some advantages like '&' staying as the half-beat point and '1 e — a 2 e — a' tripping along far more nicely for syncopations than the clumsy '1 a — a 2 a — a' (which I wouldn't use)...

[Disadvantage: no obvious distinction between my preferred compound '1 & a 2 & a' and simple '1 — & a 2 — & a' when the '1 e & a' system apparently handles compound time etc. in clumsy '1 2 3 4 5 6' ways!]

So anyone for Takadimi (which I've long considered as superior to the French system we learned at school but thought just won't catch on with my pupils)?

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:54 am 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
Ben makes a strong point that it could have been rendered in some kind of triple time.

Hmmm, sure Ben won't mind me jumping in before him to tell you he does nothing of the sort! :wink:

I don't mind indeed, Peter! In fact, thank you very much for the assist. :)

Yes, Peter is absolutely correct that what I was saying, as strongly as I knew how, was that that piece is not in compound time/triple time/however you want to describe it. In both renditions that I've heard so far (your first link, Nano, and then mine) the players play quite precisely play a dotted rhythm, with the first of the two notes in each dotted group equal in length to three of the shorter note, as opposed to being equal to two of the shorter note.

There is theory behind this, I suppose, but the practical reality is that the sound of the rhythm is radically different from compound time (compound time being made up of triplet subdivisions, which this piece is not).

Here's a famous example - the most famous example? - of an underlying rhythm of triplets overlaid by properly dotted rhythms. Done right, as in this example, you can hear a sort of 'limp' in the rhythm because of the dotted rhythm against the triplets. It's very hard to do. Amateur choirs tend to sing it in straight triplet rhythm, like with your notation, Nano, and sometimes professionals sing it with a double dotted rhythm because they really want to make the distinction. Here, the Russians, bless them, are, as one would expect, getting it right, and it's magical.

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Here's a famous example - the most famous example? - of an underlying rhythm of triplets overlaid by properly dotted rhythms.

Ha... I guessed (from the rest of your description) what that was before the video actually came up. You also get this in the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata, though it's not hard to get right there when you're in control of both elements. Full three-against-four (with all the semiquavers) as a single player is trickier, but paradoxically perhaps easier when split between performers.

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:12 am 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
So anyone for Takadimi (which I've long considered as superior to the French system we learned at school but thought just won't catch on with my pupils)?
The Faculty of Music at Wilfrid Laurier University teaches Takadimi for rhythm learning. I think I'd have a steep learning curve if I tried to learn that position-based system. I found the note-length-based system of Kodály rhythm syllables easier to understand, but it doesn't do much to track your position in the bar.


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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Takadimi tracks your position in the beat rather than the bar, so I think probably gets it right there as well as being smart enough to distinguish between simple and compound subdivisions while retaining the coincident 'di' in both. But, while it also scores logically for its application to beats of different notated values rather than permanent association with crotchets, quavers etc., I can just see my typical pupils (reared on a diet of 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4) saying 'but you said a crotchet was ta' when presented with a minim or quaver beat! That said, I've already frequent cause to be reminding the more advanced of when a crotchet's not a beat, and Takadimi's strong enough aurally to survive leaving application to different written values till absolutely necessary (which may be never for some)...

While I'd ideally have everyone reading both natively (without superimposed systems) and fluently, in practice that's just not going to happen for general class music. So appropriate aids still strike me as a good idea, and Takadimi's the system I'll choose if/when (after all these years) I finally decide we need one!

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:17 am 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
So anyone for Takadimi (which I've long considered as superior to the French system we learned at school but thought just won't catch on with my pupils)?
Didn't know about that, looks interesting. Thanks. My musical New Year resolution was (once again) to learn solfege to a stage that is functional. But after reading through this, scratching my head about what you were on about, the Takadimi link make me feel it might find a home in my brain. Any warnings for an inveterate teach-your-selfer?

Getting back to the OP of this phase. I am normally really good at recognising scraps of things that were on the 'light classical' box sets that I grew up with but I didn't get it from Nano's ABC. However, I suspect I was thrown by the not quite how it opens melody rather than the rhythm that made for an interesting discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:33 am 
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david_h wrote:
Didn't know about that, looks interesting.

I first discovered it a few years ago while reviewing how I teach rhythm and Googling for a refresher on details of the French system we learned at school. But, while it's similar to that in some respects, I've found it significantly improved in others. That said, some old things are still indelibly imprinted on my mind, like associating the air from Handel's Water Music so strongly with 'ta-efe ta-efe taa' I can't hear it without!

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My musical New Year resolution was (once again) to learn solfege to a stage that is functional.

We had to do sight singing as part of our school music courses, and were made to use tonic sol-fa even though I found it easier just to read the notes!

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But after reading through this, scratching my head about what you were on about, the Takadimi link make me feel it might find a home in my brain. Any warnings for an inveterate teach-your-selfer?

The only thing that comes instantly to mind is knowing your beat value when applying to notation. While the most-encountered simple 2/4, 3/4, 4/4 will be ta = crotchet, you've also got to think ta = dotted crotchet for compound 6/8 etc., and (with Takadimi) ta = something else for other beat values, e.g. 2/2, 6/4. If you can get your head round that (and it makes complete sense aurally*), I'd expect the rest to follow...

*Let's take a simple reel rhythm like the 'alligator crocodile' thing I mentioned further back. You might encounter this written as 2/2 (cut time), 2/4 or even 4/4 (common time). For the logical 2/2 or 2/4, it's going to be the same 'takadimi takadi' for the same aural effect, and the real (!) problem is people who write reels in 4/4 because they're not normally accented 'tadi tadi tadi ta'. Though I must confess to notating a slow reel (which isn't really a reel at all) in 4/4 myself, but nothing's ever that simple! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:14 am 
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Thanks Peter. Have made a start on learning. I am fairly well practiced at learning tunes, songs and vocal harmony parts by ear so 'oral/aural and patterns before notation' seems a sensible entry point. Though of course once I have run out of online examples I will have to start from the notation and work backwards!

I am insufficiently schooled for the beat value to be an issue so long as I am tapping my foot in the right places. Good point about the reels - I guess the fun starts with those tunes that are played as reels in some places but hornpipes in others. Your slow reel notation immediately raised the thought of "hmm, ties across the bar line, will leave that for later"

I am attracted to solfege because where I am going to in the scale in use almost always seems more significant to me that the interval to get there.


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 Post subject: Re: What's this riff?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:40 am 
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david_h wrote:
Your slow reel notation immediately raised the thought of "hmm, ties across the bar line, will leave that for later"

You can bracket the tied 'ta's and just not voice them, but you might feel the syncopation better by leaving them out and feeling the mid-beat point for the next 'di' (easy if you're tapping the beat):

tadi tadi tadi tadi | --di tadi tadi tadi | tadi tadi tadi tadi | --di tadi tadi tadi |
tadi tadi tadi tadi | --di tadi --di tadi | tadi takadi tadi tadi | tadi tadi tadi ta ||
tadi tadi tadi tadi | --di tadi tadi tadi | tadi tadi tadi tadi | --di tadi tadi tadi |
tadi tadi ta tadi | tadi tadi --di tadi | tadi takadi tadi tadi | tadi tadi tadi ta ||

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