I was listening to the lyrics of Cohens 'Hallelujah' (I especially like the cover by Pentatonix). In the first verse the lyrics seem to be describing the structure of the music. I say 'seem to be' because I did not think 'chords' contained 'minor falls' or 'major lifts'. Allowing for some artistic licence (describing the melody not a chord), is this verse describing the musical structure of the melody? Or is it 'musical-theory sounding hogwash' for the benefit of the audience who 'do not care for music'?

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.

The chords follow the lyrics exactly. Looking at the lyrics with chords, you'll see that the words are describing which chords to use (roman numerals, and lower case means minor, uppercase major).

I IV V
It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth
vi (a minor chord) IV (back to a major chord)
The minor fall and the major lift

The "fourth" and "fifth" describe the relation of the root note of the chords to the tonic of the key. So, if you're singing in C, the IV chord is F (C-D-E-F) and the V chord is G (C-D-E-F-G). The "minor fall" is because minor keys sound sadder or more down, and the "major lift" happens when a happier-sounding major chord comes in.

Pretty neat writing. Supposedly he had scores of verses for the song, and many popular versions have wildly different verses included. I've counted about 15 or so out there; Cohen undoubtedly had many more squirreled away.

EDIT: I can't make the formatting do what I want to make the chords and words line up! Hopefully you get the idea.

When John Cale announced that he was covering the song, he asked Cohen for the words. Cohen says that he ended up faxing 80 pages of verses through to Cale. Cohen also reports that at one point in the writing process, he was so frustrated that he found himself pounding his head on the floor of his room at the Chelsea Hotel, yelling "Why can't I finish this song?"

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis

Thank you. I like Cohen's work - though mainly for the lyrics. I was hoping that the lyrics were describing the melody. I do not understand your notation but (assuming roman numerals) the V -> vi is described as a a minor fall but is not vi higher than V. Likewise vi -> IV would be a fall?

Apologies if I am being dense (or too picky)....

EDIT: Too dense, I guess. Reading your post more carefully I see you explained fall and lift. Doh.

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.

As in 'I remember you well at the chelsea hotel'?

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.

Use the 'code' button. You get a fixed-width font which makes it easier. The default formatting diddles around with spacing. Assuming that this is what you wanted:


Geek stuff I can do.

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.

Yes. He owned houses in Montreal and LA, but for many years the Chelsea Hotel was where he'd live when he had to be in NYC

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis

One of my favoritest songs ever.

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"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano

Thanks for the reference. I really like the song. The youngsters in Pentatonix do an enthusiastic version which I like very much.

But which is the 'secret chord'?

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.

For my money it's that penultimate, heartbreaking Major third (if I have my chord terminologies right) at the end of the verse. Listening to different versions, it's evident not everyone has it that way, opting for the minor instead for some reason. To each their own, but to my ears the overall result frankly falls a bit flat without it. Cohen himself performed it with the Major third, and that's good enough for me, but I'm guessing it's not exactly what he had in mind by "secret chord" - although it does serve to suggest the idea, what with the way it stands out so. Rather, I think of the storied "secret chord" as something only the angels might know.

I'll be getting a harp with sharping levers some time around this upcoming new year, and Hallelujah is definitely one song that I look forward to working on, Major third and all.

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"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano

Just listened to Leonard Cohen singing it - beautiful. Then I tried Jeff Buckley. Oh dear ...

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"Only connect!"

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For me, while it's reasonably explicable and I like the song, Cohen has used language that's looking for melodic illustration...

So he's singing in C and has 'the fourth' to F (chord IV) and 'the fifth' to G (chord V), but when did you ever hear a musician describe the subdominant and dominant chords as the fourth and fifth? Chords IV and V (cardinal numbers), of course, but the fourth and fifth (ordinal)? Hmmm...

Think he'd be on more unarguable ground for the fourth and fifth if the melody took the F and G instead of A and B (which are the sixth and seventh of the scale or in both cases the thirds of their accompanying chords), but of course that would spoil it! And, while the minor fall and major lift fit harmonically if you buy into conventional concepts of sad minor and happy major (where actual effect is rarely that simple), DrPhill is not alone in not being wholly convinced by a melodically rising 'minor fall'. But then again I wouldn't be surprised if Cohen came up with the melody and chords first before concocting a crafty lyric to fit!


Nothing very 'secret' about that, though! It's just E leading to Am, which is the bog-standard way of modulating to the relative minor. It's nice, and adds some colour (hence why extra-scale notes like the G# in that E chord are called 'chromatic'), but not secret... unless he's maybe crediting David with its discovery thousands of years before it became commonplace (but still nice)?

Whatever, we're all (not least me!) in danger of taking things too seriously and over-analysing here. It is what it is and I like it!

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And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?

I agree that analysis is superfluous - the song/tune stands tall on its own merits. I am pleased that the lyrics are a (mostly) reasonable description of the melody because part of me delights in such self-reference. I am grateful for the explanations of how this is so, but I struggle a little with the chord notations and names - I find a lot of music impenetrable.

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.

I never did appreciate Jeff Buckley's voice/style. Plenty seem to though, so each to their own. Did you listen to the Pentatonix version? I think I like it as much as Leonard Cohens version(s).

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Phill

One does not equal two. Not even for very large values of one.